Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Chivas

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.

What are you talking about?

[Blackdog_kt]

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.

The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".
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I wasn't playing it down, what's the sense of detailing it. The whole world knows what happened in that conflict. It was genocide of the worst kind, and the Muslims were the blunt of it. Guess who came to their aid? The U.S. infidels of course, not the muslims.

---------------------------------

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.
--------------------------------

Scared, where did you drag that up from? We Americans are having issues everyday with muslims, and there are darn few doing anything in our interest except to sell us oil.

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The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

----------------------------------------

Inconsistency, interventionist --- and who wants sympathy?

We know there is no sympathy, because everyone thinks they can appease the Muslim extremists by ragging on American and not participating. LOL

All those little appeasements are going to be worthless when the extremists get around to serving up their revenge for just about anything they can conjure up. Currently, the extremists are just too busy with America to do more than kill a few hundred people in Spain, England or countries.

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I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

----------------------------------------

Sorry, but since no one else steps up to help or do anything. The US has become the world's police. America helped in the Eastern bloc to protect Muslims, and in Afghanistan to help the afghans defend themselves from the Russians.

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2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

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And where do you get your oil from? Compromises have to be made.

Like most of the developing world we need gasoline and we may not like who we have to buy it from... but buy it we must.

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3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

----------------------------------

LOL --- No terrorists in Iraq... who the heck is killing all the people in Iraq. Muslims killing Muslims. Like I said they can't get along among themselves.

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4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

-----------------------------------

What has this got to do with anything? Who turned a blind eye to radical islam? Also, I always had the idea the Chechnya was part of Russia. Oh, I forgot the Chechens don't want to be part of Russia.

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5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

------------------------------------

Who is doing this? As I recall they just got their independence recognized.

----------------------------------

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

----------------------------------

International law... what law, who holds jurisdiction.

-----------------------------------

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

------------------------------------

buying it??

Pawns.. who are you talking to, everyone has problems with Muslims. As I recall Muslim extremists bombed and killed another large group of Muslim civilians today in Iraq. You tell me what kind of brotherhood that is?

--------------------------------------

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

-------------------------------------

All the theys just don't connect to make any sense.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

[Bobb4]

There is no such thing as an Islamic Extremist. Islam is a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a Christian Extremist. Christianity is a religion of peace.
But there are people and they are daft buggers who like war. Even at a young age most of us buy our children guns, model tanks and planes and then we wonder why they grow-up and join the army.
So who causes war, daft buggers who buy their kids guns and stuff when they are young Amen.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by mondo

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

You said, "Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit."

You said, "Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence."

Then what is the sentence? Deportation after a lengthy prison sentence or worse? I haven't been in Saudi for some time, but they embrace many mundane infractions as forbidden in the the name of Islam.

The Americans on these boards will speak right up. We aren't ashamed of our record, regardless of how other people twist and spin their speculative poisons.

Your Jaywalk analogy is peculiar. Jaywalking laws are practically never enforced, but they aren't stupid. Those laws are to keep pedestrians out of vehiclar traffic to prevent them from getting killed or injured. IMO, they are good laws because I sure don't want to run over someone.

It written in the Koran in so many words to strike off the head of the infidel? It sure as heck is, and those kinds of words in the hands of the wrong people cause problems, mistrust and hatred.

In America, we currently have about 6 million muslims. We get along fine with them and Americans live side by side with them as well. Do you know we don't have any laws to prohibit those persons from carry a copy of the Koran, or owning it in our country. Do you know they actually enjoy all the freedoms of being an American, freedom of speech, freedom to worship as they please, freedom to evangelize other Americans. All things that are forbidden in Muslim dominated middle east countries.

I agree that so-called Muslim extremists are not intune with any religion. They use religion to further their agenda of hatred and murder. They justify their works on the basis of faith, but we all know it's a lie. The media all over the world prefers to use words that apply to religion, because it makes better press. Intelligent people know that, but those ignorant and deceived people that are strapping on those bombs and blowing themselves up don't get it.

Have you read about any vehement denials from Muslim clerics and leaders of those persons discouraging suicide attacks? I don't read of them trying to do anything about it.

An excerpt from PBS frontline:

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region --
not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America.

Here is video from PBS..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/video.html

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[VMF-214_HaVoK]

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

I live in Ameican and I watch TV. There is all manner of porn, adultery, drunkeness, drug abuse, murder, mayhem, anarchy, displayed and promoted constantly over television. San Francisco, Philadelphia, Palm Springs, Ca, New York City are over run with homosexuals.

Ok, you're going to make a very bigotted and homophobic statement like this and then go on to talk about islamic intolerence?!

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Lack of tolerance with words and testimony is nothing like tolerance where action is taken.

Radical Islam has absolutely NO tolerance, for any of the above.

It hasn't been too long ago we saw films of the Taliban killing a woman in a soccer stadium for adultery. Recently, the Saudi's wanted to flog a woman because she got raped. Radical islam is completely intolerant and makes the bible belt as you call it look like a Sunday school picnic.

If we had that kind of intolerance in America with that kind of mentality we'd have half the population of our women being murdered in the Superbowl for moral mis-behavior.

The spurious argument and attacks on the bible belt are just worthless diversions, because liberal thinkers want even more liberality in America. How much more do they want.. how much farther can it go. I'm sure it can be worse, because I just don't have my mind preoccupied with doing all the evil I can conjure up.

Americans are dying in Iraq, and it's not Iraqi doing the dirty work. If America is somehow able to actually create a free society in Iraq, just think how pervasive freedom will be in the rest of the middle east. The kings and despot leaders of middle east countries definitely don't want to wind up like Iran. They want to keep their elite positions of power over their people.

No muslim country leader in the middle east has anything to gain from a free Iraq, only the people do.

This is why the biblebelt is feared, it's that very same bigotted and hipocritical BS that we do not need in power.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by VMF-214_HaVoK

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

Yeah... things can go awry. I just recall how non-speaking we were with Russia during Cold War. Russian bombers flying over US carriers, challenging US over the missle deal in Poland all sound like cold war junk to me. I have enjoyed all the international crowd associated with IL2, and a great sim game as well.

I do hope Oleg puts this thing on the front burner before things get worse beween us. Please don't read that as a political statement.

I'm happy and not mad with anyone. I respect all views.

Thanks to all responders

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro

Ok, you're going to make a very bigotted and homophobic statement like this and then go on to talk about islamic intolerence?!

This is why the biblebelt is feared, it's that very same bigotted and hipocritical BS that we do not need in power.

I only used those examples of behavior that is contrary to religious beliefs in practically every religion, including Islam. The sad part is, you can't even speak of sinful behavior without people saying it is bigot talk. Thank goodness, we have freedom of speech in America, yet political correctness is taking it's toll.