Curious...Why is this game so hard to get right?

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by csThor

You can't "coerce" players to do anything, they will do what they want anyway. Players play the game as a pasttime, to derive enjoyment. Which is why no kind of "coercion system" will do anything but drive players away.

Well said. You can't even get players to follow way points in IL2 co-op missions.

I flew a campaign where my squad was always tasked with capping a certain airfield. 2 hours of endlessly circling while the action took place way on the other side of the map. After two weekends of that we were done. Was our job important and historically accurate? Yes. Was it fun and worth the two hours spent out of our weekend? NO.

Anyone who thinks they can re-create WW2 in total historic fidelity is kidding themselves. If I've learned anything in my 10+ years of playing this sim, it's that.

[catito14]

The problem for me, is not the game itself, is how the Russians do the things. Look the "IronFront 44" for ARMA2, he was released the game without a demo and full of bugs. I don´t know how manage the projects in Russia, but apparently they do so in a quite different way from our "western minds".

[SiThSpAwN]

Originally Posted by catito14

The problem for me, is not the game itself, is how the Russians do the things. Look the "IronFront 44" for ARMA2, he was released the game without a demo and full of bugs. I don´t know how manage the projects in Russia, but apparently they do so in a quite different way from our "western minds".

Holy WTFs Batman....

[csThor]

Originally Posted by catito14

The problem for me, is not the game itself, is how the Russians do the things. Look the "IronFront 44" for ARMA2, he was released the game without a demo and full of bugs. I don´t know how manage the projects in Russia, but apparently they do so in a quite different way from our "western minds".

Quite honestly it's the other way around. The only sims worth the title that have come out in the past decade were mostly done by teams originated in Russia. Western publishers have mostly dropped out of that market or have butchered promising concepts in favor of a quick buck. If anything has happenend then it's that western ideas about management have contamined the previously productive environment of software development in Russia. Or, even shorter, western greed (aka total capitalism) has come and it's showing its ugly face.

[catito14]

Ups!! Guys, sorry if you misunderstand my comment, i didn´t mean it as "bad critic" ... i said it because the title of the thread ... sometimes we (or at least in my case) can´t understand how the devs manage the things. I think this is because a different idiosincracy between the west and the russian ideas.

[Toni74]

Originally Posted by csThor

Quite honestly it's the other way around. The only sims worth the title that have come out in the past decade were mostly done by teams originated in Russia. Western publishers have mostly dropped out of that market or have butchered promising concepts in favor of a quick buck. If anything has happenend then it's that western ideas about management have contamined the previously productive environment of software development in Russia. Or, even shorter, western greed (aka total capitalism) has come and it's showing its ugly face.

+1
true words.

[priller26]

Question..why is is so hard to get particle effects right...EVEN on those with very high end machines?

[the Dutchman]

What do you think,they can't even patch the damn sim,they simply lack the knowlidge!

[Verhängnis]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Why is it so hard for 1C to get the RAF speeds and flight models right? The numbers are all over the internet and various other historical references.

A simple reference to the source that you, the CloD developers, took from and modeled this information into the game would be all that is needed to assuage the raging frustration from players...or just simply state that you "have not created a flight simulation, but a representation of a world where the WWII aerial theater never happened as it did."

This is getting ridiculous.

Now to put these sort of posts hopefully to an end, here is the flight model and engine model from an aircraft in IL-2 1946:
And yet Oleg himself stated that the models in CoD are calculated at many many more points, and these calculations are also more complicated...

[Aircraft]
  Type 1
  Crew 1
  Wingspan 8.11
  Length 6.38
  Seaplane 0
  Canard 0
  Jet 0
  JetHiV 0
[Mass]
  Empty 639.0
  TakeOff 880.0
  Oil 14.5
  Fuel 246.0
[Controls]
  CAileron 1
  CAileronTrim 0
  CElevator 1
  CElevatorTrim 0
  CRudder 1
  CRudderTrim 0
  CFlap 0
  CFlapPos 2
  CDiveBrake 0
  CInterceptor 0
  CEngine 1
  CVectoredThrust 0
  CUndercarriage 0
  CLockTailwheel 1
  CStabilizer 0
  CArrestorHook 0
  CWingFold 0
  CCockpitDoor 0
  DefaultAileronTrim -0.021
  DefaultElevatorTrim -0.12
  DefaultRudderTrim -0.098
[Squares]
  Wing 22.67
  Aileron 1.5
  Flap 1.0
  Stabilizer 1.5
  Elevator 1.2
  Keel 0.9
  Rudder 0.83
  Wing_In 3.78
  Wing_Mid 3.78
  Wing_Out 3.78
  AirbrakeCxS 0.0
[Arm]
  Aileron 3.18
  Flap 1.0
  Stabilizer 4.2
  Keel 4.3
  Elevator 4.55
  Rudder 4.78
  Wing_In 1.31
  Wing_Mid 1.0
  Wing_Out 3.5
  Wing_V 0.0
  GCenter -0.05
  GCenterZ 0.00
  GC_AOA_Shift 0.20
  GC_Flaps_Shift 0.10
  GC_Gear_Shift -0.15
[Toughness]
  AroneL 50
  AroneR 50
  CF 200
  Engine1 30
  Engine2 30
  Engine3 30
  Engine4 30
  GearL2 200
  GearR2 200
  Keel1 30
  Keel2 50
  Nose 100
  Oil 50
  Rudder1 50
  Rudder2 50
  StabL 50
  StabR 50
  Tail1 150
  Tail2 150
  Turret1B 30
  Turret2B 30
  Turret3B 30
  Turret4B 30
  Turret5B 30
  Turret6B 30
  VatorL 50
  VatorR 50
  WingLIn 100
  WingLMid 90
  WingLOut 50
  WingRIn 100
  WingRMid 90
  WingROut 50
  Flap01 30
  Flap02 30
  Flap03 30
  Flap04 30
[Engine]
  Engine0Family Hispano-Suiza 8:SE5_FM
  Engine0SubModel Be
[Gear]
  H 1.54
  Pitch 16.8
  SinkFactor 500.0
[Params]
  CriticalAOA 16.00
  CriticalCy 01.50
  CriticalAOAFlap 15.50
  CriticalCyFlap 01.65
  SpinTailAlpha 17.00
  SpinCxLoss 0.06
  SpinCyLoss 0.03
  Vyfac 1.0
  Tfac 1.1
  Vmin 100.0
  Vmax 200.0
  VmaxAllowed 285.0
  VmaxH 230.0
  HofVmax 3500.0
  VminFLAPS 75.0
  VmaxFLAPS 250.0
  Vz_climb 15.0
  V_climb 260.0
  T_turn 18.0
  V_turn 300.0
  K_max 11.0
  Cy0_max 0.15
  FlapsMult 1.0
  FlapsAngSh 4.0
  Range 483.0
  CruiseSpeed 180.0
  SensYaw 0.4
  SensPitch 0.62
  SensRoll 0.5
[Polares]
  lineCyCoeff 0.087
  AOAMinCx_Shift 0.0
  Cy0_0 0.13
  AOACritH_0 16.0
  AOACritL_0 -16.0
  CyCritH_0 1.3
  CyCritL_0 -0.7
  CxMin_0 0.0305
  parabCxCoeff_0 4.3E-4
  Cy0_1 0.58
  AOACritH_1 14.0
  AOACritL_1 -20.0
  CyCritH_1 1.45
  CyCritL_1 -0.7
  CxMin_1 0.076
  parabCxCoeff_1 6.2E-4
  parabAngle 10.0
  Decline 0.002
  maxDistAng 38.0
  draw_graphs 0
[SOUND]
  Engine Std

[Generic]
  Type Inline
  Autonomous 1
  Cylinders 8
  Carburetor 2
  Direction Right
  TowFactor 1.0
  PropMass 150.0
  EngineI 1.0
  EngineAcceleration 6.0
  Extinguishers 0
  CompressorType 1
  CompressorSteps 2
  AfterburnerType 0
  MixerType 1
  cThrottle 1
  cAfterburner 0
  cProp 1
  cMix 0
  cMagneto 1
  cCompressor 1
  cFeather 0
  cRadiator 1
  TESPEED 0.01
  TWATERMAXRPM 95
  TOILINMAXRPM 70
  TOILOUTMAXRPM 99
  MAXRPMTIME 280
  MINRPMTIME 999
  TWATERMAX 135
  TWATERMIN 60
  TOILMAX 105
  TOILMIN 40
  SoundName Bristol-Mercury
  PropName middle
  StartStopName bristol-hercules
[Be]
  Carburetor 3
  HorsePowers 220
  BoostFactor 1.1
  Thrust 0
  PropMass 15.0
  EngineAcceleration 2.0
  cRadiator 0
  cProp 0
  RPMMin 440
  RPMNom 2300
  RPMMax 2750
  RPMMaxAllowed 3320
  Reductor 0.75
  PropDiameter 2.8
  PropAnglerType 0
  PropAnglerSpeed 0.06
  PropAnglerMinParam 900
  PropAnglerMaxParam 2750
  PropPhiMin 25.0
  PropPhiMax 25.0
  PropAoA0 11.0
  CompressorPMax 1.5
  CompressorAltitude0 4200.0
  CompressorMultiplier0 1.00
  CompressorRPMP0 1800.0
  CompressorRPMPMax 2750.0
  CompressorMaxATARPM 1.5
  CompressorSpeedManifold 0.5
  CompressorRPM0 400
  CompressorATA0 0.65
  DisP0x 2550
  DisP0y 0
  DisP1x 0
  DisP1y 140
  BOOSTFACTOR 1.0
  TESPEED 0.01
  TWATERMAXRPM 90
  TOILINMAXRPM 65
  TOILOUTMAXRPM 97
  MAXRPMTIME 280
  MINRPMTIME 999
  TWATERMAX 115
  TWATERMIN 60
  TOILMAX 130
  TOILMIN 40

And then we can take a look in the java files, and we have a plethora of calculations that all work together, this one being a rather simple example for engine inertia:

 public void setFricCoeffT(float f)
    {
        fricCoeffT = f;
    }

    private float getFrictionMoment(float f)
    {
        float f1 = 0.0F;
        if(bIsInoperable || stage == 0 || controlMagneto == 0)
        {
            fricCoeffT += 0.1F * f;
            if(fricCoeffT > 1.0F)
                fricCoeffT = 1.0F;
            float f2 = w * _1_wMax;
            f1 = (-fricCoeffT * (6F + 3.8F * f2) * (propI + engineI)) / f;
            float f3 = (-0.99F * w * (propI + engineI)) / f;
            if(f1 < f3)
                f1 = f3;
        } else
        {
            fricCoeffT = 0.0F;
        }
        return f1;
    }

    private float getJetFrictionMoment(float f)
    {
        float f1 = 0.0F;
        if(bIsInoperable || stage == 0)
            f1 = (-0.002F * w * (propI + engineI)) / f;
        return f1;
    }

So take all of that, complicate a few times and this is what the devs are dealing with, the 3d model has no effect on the flight dynamics. So I am sure you can imagine just what they are working with here.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by csThor

Western publishers have mostly dropped out of that market or have butchered promising concepts in favor of a quick buck.

Not hard to understand when, quite often, you'll see some idiot fan pipe up and say; "I'll gladly pay $500 for a > insert no particular plane name< xyz variant" or model, or "I'll quite happily pay for this or pay for that"