Mr maddox. Maby A2A is someone to talk to??

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

So Oleg how complex do you plan for the systems management for the sport aircraft?

I think I told already - everything that need to be done for a flight, using weapon, including take off and landing, but not a complete starting procedure.
As I told already: shown starting procedure above is also incomplete. If you have manual of spitfire you make take a look there...

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

As I told already: shown starting procedure above is also incomplete. If you have manual of spitfire you make take look there...

To add another example to that: take a look at the manual for the Me 262 (I have a translated copy of the original). A quick glance reveals about 25 steps needed to start the aircraft. Now, how many really want to go through that any more than a couple of times?

[SlipBall]

I was just curious if the sport aircraft were to be different from the rest in that regard

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

To add another example to that: take a look at the manual for the Me 262 (I have a translated copy of the original). A quick glance reveals about 25 steps needed to start the aircraft. Now, how many really want to go through that any more than a couple of times?

In spitfire, Stuka, 109, etc is also about the same amount of all steps.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

To add another example to that: take a look at the manual for the Me 262 (I have a translated copy of the original). A quick glance reveals about 25 steps needed to start the aircraft. Now, how many really want to go through that any more than a couple of times?

I do! But i know i'm the one of the masochist minority, and i willing to sacrifice that level of simulation for other things that are more important.

Now please, not trying to offend anybody here, but as for the start up of the video on the first post, it is simplified and not fully realistic, i agree, but isn't that what we are gonna have too on SoW? Simplified start up sequences? Why criticize it if we are gonna do the same?.

As for the suggestion of Ltbear, his first post i didn't understand either what he was trying to suggest, but his seccond post clarifys a lot and its i beleive its a good suggestion. Heck, if i had enough money to form my own company, i would be contacting Oleg about license for SoW and make a Mediterranean addon. Does anybody have 6 millions dollars to give me freely?

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Les

In one of the interviews from a while ago, Oleg was asked about how the online/offline aspects of SOW would work. He said (in my own words) they were still deciding, but were considering making offline planes open to all, so anyone from hacks to pro's could do whatever they want. He also said online would be two-tiered, with one form of online play open to all, and with another form locked down and using only official or officially sanctioned Maddox Games planes.

I think that could be a workable solution.

In fact, something similar has been done with a racing sim called 'rFactor', where the sim developers made the overall sim, including some generic cars and tracks, then let the modding community do with it (almost) whatever they wanted. From there you got a huge amount of crap and uncompleted cars and tracks, but also some top quality stuff too. This is seperate to other developing teams who licensed the sim engine and released other commercial products (similar to the console games made from Il-2).

The thing is though, while racing sims for the PC are a niche market, flight sims are even more so, and combat flight sims are even more so than that. And (!) Oleg has raised the bar so high with the SOW plane models, I'm not sure how many modding teams there are out there who could actually model planes to that standard. Remember too that some of these third party developers just might not be capable of stretching their products over multiple sims, or might just prefer not to for whatever reason.

Same with the customers in that last regard. Some people could see their favourite third party plane modeller making a plane for SOW and still not buy it (and SOW) just because it's not in the sim they're otherwise used to and have often invested a lot of time and money in.

Not trying to be negative. I just felt like trying to sort some of this stuff out in my own mind by writing about it, and to maybe play devils advocate a bit too, by suggesting this reliance on third party content might not have the results we'd all hope for.

Like all of you I want all the best for the SOW series and its developers, but there's a gamble being taken here to some extent, and while not knowing of course all the plans and behind the scenes goings on, I can't help but be skeptical about the third party aspect of it.

I hope for example as many potential plane-modelling teams as possible have already been notified of SOW's development and that they're all lined up to get the SDK's or whatever info it takes to at least see if making extra content is viable for them, or will that all happen later (and delay by months or years whatever 3rd party stuff we do end up seeing)?

I'm just hoping Oleg and his team, with their limited resources, can keep the series viable on their own if they have to and that they haven't gone for a business model that's too dependent upon what just might not happen. That's not meant to be an insult to Oleg's business sense, I trust he/they know what they're doing, it's just me expressing some doubts based on a lack of knowledge about something I'm interested in (how the SOW series will play out).

I think too I'm just trying to keep my expectations in check and preparing myself for a much more content-limited series than we've had so far, by imagining what would happen if there were no or very few decent third party add-ons made for it.

I find that a helpful approach to take in general too, hoping for something good, but not expecting it. Saves a lot of unnecessary disappointment and resentment if/and when things don't turn out the way I'd like, remembering I'm owed nothing, and my hopes an expectations are two different things. Nothing worse than ripping yourself off by creating false expectations and then blaming others for it when they're not met...

Edit- Posted this and then saw the man himself posted just above this while I was writing, I would have talked to him and not about him if I'd known he was actually here at the time.

Good points and well argued if you ask me. Also, playing devil's advocate is my favorite sport as well, as we need to see the opposing viewpoint too if we expect to draw any reasonable conclusions.

My idea is that it will play out just like you said. The main content and gameplay will be based on official expansions just like it was in IL2. From then on, a myriad of 3rd party add-ons that range in quality from poor to excellent will be available, either for free or payware. Some of those might end up getting officially sanctioned status and some won't.

I think this is actually the best of both worlds. For example, i won't be forced to buy a plane model just to fly one map on my favorite server because i'll be using the stock models provided by SoW. However, if i have spent money on an aftermarket model of the same plane that's done to a high enough standard and keeps the playing field level, i might be allowed to fly that on the same server as well. For example, it would be like clicking on the aircraft selection menu before spawning and choosing between the stock 109 and the A2A 109.

As for single player now, Seeker makes a good point as well. Having the abbility to integrate 3rd party aircraft into the automatic mission creation/dynamic campaign framework is what will make or break the use of 3rd party add-on aircraft by other developers.

[engarde]

Central to the entire development situation must be available resources.

Imagine if MAddox Games created a Spitfire sim..... all that talent focussed on a single point?

Instead we get many great aircraft in a sim crafted by experts.

Yes, other devs will have shiny things to show off too. And in themselves, fine things they are. But will other devs have such a range and proven dedicated background of playable shiny things?

Time, and money, arent infinite factors in this sims dev cycle.

I used to be a programmer for a govt business and I sometimes I had hours to produce a fix to a problem, including phone calls for updates and ETA for producing a -WORKING- release package so managers could brief heads of depts.

I can only wonder at the polishing and balancing and crafting going on to create such a product.

I believe, from past efforts, MAddox Games will produce the very best possible product from the money and time available to them.

Developing anything isnt easy. Wild demands and requests totally out of scope?

Pointless.

Im certain the time will arrive where the product is signed off, and I will buy my initial and a few other storage copies, and with a smile on my face

[Ltbear]

Pretty darn good stuf in here, didnt count on that

As i statet in my second topic, the interesting part for me is about the feeling not being alone. Some talks about the "no mission no goal" feeling you get from a civilian flight sim, and that feeling can also pop up flying long missions in a world war two bomber.

You take of from point A fly to point B then return to Point A. You have maby 10 mins of action doing a 1 hour flight.

Some enjoy this aspect, but do get a feeling of empty plane. In a WW2 bomber you as the pilot was a unit leader, and the crew was your unit and responcebility. You used them to scout the skyes, every man onboard was a important tool for the planes operation.

IL2 is a masterpiece of simulation, SOW will take it to a brand new level, and thats why i createt this post initialy. For the racing pilots out there it maby sounds stupid, but i for many years had a hope that we would maby se some small bit of taking the bombers just that small level higher.

A visual crew inside the plane was the smalest hope, nothing fancy but they would be there.

The big wish had been for an interactive crew, but i understood what was written about all this, but atleast kept the small hope for a visual crew.

I do understand nothing is easy, i do understand some of the things that could cause problems.

But A2A maneged to create a module outside the 3d engine, that interacts with the 3d engine, that i thought atleast could be relevant for mr maddox, atleast as a brainstorm for how this can be made. And no im not talking about the polygons or the damegde models or fancy clickable cocpits etc.

All i had hopes for with my post here was that he maby could get an idea how to help us "bombers" out with our empty planes. I dont know hes thoughts on this, i dont know how he thinks on this, all i know is that i atleast have shown that a working AI on a player plane is not imposible, that you can have an interactive crew. This dont have anything to do with server loads or bullets in flight, no under/over modeled planes.

Its about creating the full imersion for those who realy enjoys there HE-111`s B-17`s or blenheims....

Sometimes you can get a feeling that bombers are not a priority, that the 1 seaters are what everyone loves and a bomber should just be a 1 seater with big bombs and guns all over....

Mr maddox have createt a game series that wiped out the competition. Hes series of games will last for a werry long time especialy with SOW comming. What he have braught into the virtual ww2 battle scenes are amazing and im loving every second of it, it just makes me a tiny bit sad that if a want that "bomber feeling" i have to play a game from 2000 a 11 year old game.

Mr maddox have the know how, the tools and the love for the ww2 era planes that he could bring that "bomber feeling" into what i have no doubt will be the best ww2 era simulation ever to se the face of the earth....

I just wantet to raise my word he have been kindly enough to reply in this thread, that was my hope and goal.

sorry about the wall of tekst, just werry afraid to be misunderstood because of my English..

Ltbear

I have been with mr maddox since the original game, and i will play SOW and again buy two copys just to create some more revenue for hes company. This is not a whine/bash or negative, just a small voice talking for the bomber pilots

Hope you all catch a good day

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

To add another example to that: take a look at the manual for the Me 262 (I have a translated copy of the original). A quick glance reveals about 25 steps needed to start the aircraft. Now, how many really want to go through that any more than a couple of times?

I agree. In a combat sim, I'd love the chance to do this, but I would not use it more than a few times. Take the Battle of Britain Wings of Victory game. I have used the startup procedure before (which is probably not as detailed as real-life) but I just prefer to hit a few buttons. Not necessarily because I prefer playing on lower difficulty settings, but because I prefer the in-air experience.
Having said this, if SoW didn't have a detailed start-sequence like this it wouldn't bother me. It depends on how realistic one wishes to make their experience (and also how much time you may have, sometimes).

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

Pretty darn good stuf in here, didnt count on that

As i statet in my second topic, the interesting part for me is about the feeling not being alone. Some talks about the "no mission no goal" feeling you get from a civilian flight sim, and that feeling can also pop up flying long missions in a world war two bomber.

You take of from point A fly to point B then return to Point A. You have maby 10 mins of action doing a 1 hour flight.

Some enjoy this aspect, but do get a feeling of empty plane. In a WW2 bomber you as the pilot was a unit leader, and the crew was your unit and responcebility. You used them to scout the skyes, every man onboard was a important tool for the planes operation.

IL2 is a masterpiece of simulation, SOW will take it to a brand new level, and thats why i createt this post initialy. For the racing pilots out there it maby sounds stupid, but i for many years had a hope that we would maby se some small bit of taking the bombers just that small level higher.

A visual crew inside the plane was the smalest hope, nothing fancy but they would be there.

The big wish had been for an interactive crew, but i understood what was written about all this, but atleast kept the small hope for a visual crew.

I do understand nothing is easy, i do understand some of the things that could cause problems.

But A2A maneged to create a module outside the 3d engine, that interacts with the 3d engine, that i thought atleast could be relevant for mr maddox, atleast as a brainstorm for how this can be made. And no im not talking about the polygons or the damegde models or fancy clickable cocpits etc.

All i had hopes for with my post here was that he maby could get an idea how to help us "bombers" out with our empty planes. I dont know hes thoughts on this, i dont know how he thinks on this, all i know is that i atleast have shown that a working AI on a player plane is not imposible, that you can have an interactive crew. This dont have anything to do with server loads or bullets in flight, no under/over modeled planes.

Its about creating the full imersion for those who realy enjoys there HE-111`s B-17`s or blenheims....

Sometimes you can get a feeling that bombers are not a priority, that the 1 seaters are what everyone loves and a bomber should just be a 1 seater with big bombs and guns all over....

Mr maddox have createt a game series that wiped out the competition. Hes series of games will last for a werry long time especialy with SOW comming. What he have braught into the virtual ww2 battle scenes are amazing and im loving every second of it, it just makes me a tiny bit sad that if a want that "bomber feeling" i have to play a game from 2000 a 11 year old game.

Mr maddox have the know how, the tools and the love for the ww2 era planes that he could bring that "bomber feeling" into what i have no doubt will be the best ww2 era simulation ever to se the face of the earth....

I just wantet to raise my word he have been kindly enough to reply in this thread, that was my hope and goal.

sorry about the wall of tekst, just werry afraid to be misunderstood because of my English..

Ltbear

I have been with mr maddox since the original game, and i will play SOW and again buy two copys just to create some more revenue for hes company. This is not a whine/bash or negative, just a small voice talking for the bomber pilots

Hope you all catch a good day

No problem with your English. My Engish is probably worse despite of my English surname (Russian branch)

Anyway, in SoW you will get the possiblity to take off, fly enough and by the mouse to open the bomb doors, select sequence and then drop them. I'm not listing a lot of other clickable functions that we have. When I tell that we have all things clickable that are neccessary for the flight I mean really a lot of things.

In nearest future I would record the videos step by step about some of features in our new sim. We just need to get new PC with video cards.... with its movement in new office we still have old PC and even the Igromir presentation was on the PC that isn't enough for demonstration of full scale of effects and visuals. So I even was need to decrease the detalisation that to make possible the smooth video that we plan to post with English language annotations for this friday development update.

But I also hope that you got my point of view for the third party development teams - we are open for them for different models of business in future. It will be posted later before the release or maybe earlier the all possible ways.

For now I want to say that there are already several teams and single developers that want using SoW and BoB engine, series:

1. to make add-ons with campaigns
2. To make alternative campaign system
3. To make new aircraft
4. to make new maps
5. to make new ground units and make them controlable by player
6. to make the complete add-ons with new plane set and battles.
7. to make special online events
8. to get a license for the engine to make other theater sim compatible with the series online
9. to get a license for development absolutely other type of the game (I would say like Crimson Skyes but probably with realistic physics)

And that isn't all.

Sure if will have success with the first sim of new series we (developers, my team) will be able to make happy you with many new features in the series, like it was with Il-2, but with more great help of community, talent developers and producers of separate add-ons.

And I don't like to repeat mistakes of my own and other people in company with the license of Il-2 engine and its content ... That now will be under strong control that to get investment for the new versions of our own sims.
Hope you all understand what I mean.