The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

by definition a battle is a conflict that happens between two parts in a precise lapse of time. The end can be a victory of one side or a draw, but there needs to be an end.

In the way things evolved, the battle against Britain wasn't over until VE day, the plan of undermining morale and assessing damage to England was still carried out with V1s and V2s. The fact that air operations got less intense and eventually the force was moved somewhere else meant that there was a change of tactics, not a crippling blow to the Luftwaffe which stopped them from operating as an Air Force. The aerial clashes over the Channel were part of a bigger plot, not a battle per se.

I understand the need for a sense of "battle" and "united we stand", but there's no logic nor nobility in a modern war like WW2, that's why I think the whole concept of the Battle of Britain is a bit bogus, and the clashes over the channel resulted into a draw.

Hello again.......so because there was no 'battle' and there was 'no end' therefore no 'victory' and no 'defeat' how exactly could there even be a 'draw', one could consider the 'end' was the point German air operations ceased, no need for anhilation (thats an end of war scenario)

I think what we have achieved with this thread is merely pointing out theres a very fine line between definitions over this event, and it seems hardly worth the effort trying to prove the alternate history, it's still going to be one of the largest air 'battles' of the second world war which gives it enough significance, I know it's upsetting for many to consider the British came of victorious, but what can we do.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Hello again.......so because there was no 'battle' and there was 'no end' therefore no 'victory' and no 'defeat' how exactly could there even be a 'draw', one could consider the 'end' was the point German air operations ceased, no need for anhilation (thats an end of war scenario)

I think what we have achieved with this thread is merely pointing out theres a very fine line between definitions over this event, and it seems hardly worth the effort trying to prove the alternate history, it's still going to be one of the largest air 'battles' of the second world war which gives it enough significance, I know it's upsetting for many to consider the British came of victorious, but what can we do.

aawww come on mate, it's not a matter of who's victorious, for an historian it's firstly a matter of mechanics, not feelings.

If we look at the aerial battle numbers, both had similar losses, and the end of the big daily air operations was anyway asynchronous with the Blitz itself.

There's too much of a blurred line there, there's no breaking of frontlines, loss or gain or territory, disbandment of an army or any other sign that would identify it as a battle. It was an intensification of aerial defence over a few months, depicted by propaganda (and rightly so for the sake of morale) as a "battle", which had an old fashioned yet appealing sound to it, especially cos the perception was one of victory. But it didn't last long unfortunately, cos the bombing of civilian targets continued

[Skoshi Tiger]

So if it wasn't a battle by your definition it was a campaign

definition: A series of military operations undertaken to achieve a large-scale objective during a war.

Which ended in a failure on the Axis side and a victory on the side of the British.

The objective of the Axis was to get the British to sue for peace or destroy their capability to resist an invasion (depending upon who you listen to) , an objective that they failed to accomplish.

The objective that the British had was to repel the Axis attacks and gain time to rebuild their offensive capabilities, which they succeeded in doing. Obviously a victory.

Of cource battle would be equally vaild if you used the definition "A protracted controversy or struggle" and it does roll off the tongue better than the "Britain campaign"

Cheers!

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

aawww come on mate, it's not a matter of who's victorious, for an historian it's firstly a matter of mechanics, not feelings.

If we look at the aerial battle numbers, both had similar losses, and the end of the big daily air operations was anyway asynchronous with the Blitz itself.

There's too much of a blurred line there, there's no breaking of frontlines, loss or gain or territory, disbandment of an army or any other sign that would identify it as a battle. It was an intensification of aerial defence over a few months, depicted by propaganda (and rightly so for the sake of morale) as a "battle", which had an old fashioned yet appealing sound to it, especially cos the perception was one of victory. But it didn't last long unfortunately, cos the bombing of civilian targets continued

Well to be honest I'm sold on all the 'historian perspective' stuff, I have to agree, but humans were involved so feelings are a 'factor', morale is a factor in conflict, it's another weapon in the armoury.
so German Morale 'had' to be affected by the first bit of resistance they got, the losses they suffered, it must have been a contributing factor to the decision to pack up the Bratwurst rations and send them east.

for 3 months the British fought almost expecting to lose, we didn't give up.

What I'm asking you Stern is maybe to get back in touch with your 'human' side instead of the robotic historian, and see how it feels.....

[Sammi79]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I understand the need for a sense of "battle" and "united we stand", but there's no logic nor nobility in a modern war like WW2, that's why I think the whole concept of the Battle of Britain is a bit bogus, and the clashes over the channel resulted into a draw.

A megalomaniac fascist dictator attempts to conquer the entirety of Europe, the logical and noble response is to oppose him. The reason WWII is remembered so vividly through many shades of tinted glasses is that for the allies at least, it was and still is seen as 'a just war' distasteful as the phrase may be, it was also necessary. It is also the only conflict of modern times that can be seen this way, WWI certainly cannot, and the post WWII conflicts are all terribly muddied in terms of right and wrong.

The Battle of Britain ended on september 17th 1940 when the Nazi leadership realised the Luftwaffe had been completely unsuccessful in achieving their objectives and indefinitely postponed (cancelled) operation sea lion. At this point the Luftwaffe were at roughly 50% numbers of men and machines they had been at the start of the summer, whereas the RAF had increased in number by roughly 40%. The losses were comparable but were higher for the Luftwaffe as you'd expect for the attacking force, but considering their greater numbers and superior machines (at the start of the year) not to mention battle experienced pilots and crews is a significant failure. By denying air superiority by means of staying alive and attriting the Luftwaffe until their previously greater force was now a similar size, the RAF set in stone that no land invasion of Britain could ever be mounted, as the RN would send whatever tried to cross to the bottom of the channel.

The plans then changed to night bombing of civilian centers (which no air force in the world at that time could possibly completely prevent with the limits of technology) which is not a continuation of the previous battle IMO but a new battle, with different objectives (to try and turn British public opinion against its leaders) which were also never achieved, in fact the Blitz (see this battle had a name as well) doubly failed as it had the opposite effect to that which was intended.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

aawww come on mate, it's not a matter of who's victorious, for an historian it's firstly a matter of mechanics, not feelings.

If we look at the aerial battle numbers, both had similar losses, and the end of the big daily air operations was anyway asynchronous with the Blitz itself.

There's too much of a blurred line there, there's no breaking of frontlines, loss or gain or territory, disbandment of an army or any other sign that would identify it as a battle. It was an intensification of aerial defence over a few months, depicted by propaganda (and rightly so for the sake of morale) as a "battle", which had an old fashioned yet appealing sound to it, especially cos the perception was one of victory. But it didn't last long unfortunately, cos the bombing of civilian targets continued

Eh up, we have agreed to disagree but given the definition above.

Couple of things.

The bombing of civilians in the Blitz was to achieve a completely different stated objective from the objective at the start of the Battle of Britain.

And given your definition above where do say Trafalgar and Midway fit?

there's no breaking of frontlines: Tick for both
loss or gain or territory: Tick for both
disbandment of an army: Tick for both
Or any other sign that would identify it as a battle.... Well other than one side very clearly achieved it's objectives and one side didn't

Your 'logic' doesn't work Stern, sorry.

Regards Mike

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

So if it wasn't a battle by your definition it was a campaign

definition: A series of military operations undertaken to achieve a large-scale objective during a war.

Which ended in a failure on the Axis side and a victory on the side of the British.

The objective of the Axis was to get the British to sue for peace or destroy their capability to resist an invasion (depending upon who you listen to) , an objective that they failed to accomplish.

The objective that the British had was to repel the Axis attacks and gain time to rebuild their offensive capabilities, which they succeeded in doing. Obviously a victory.

Of cource battle would be equally vaild if you used the definition "A protracted controversy or struggle" and it does roll off the tongue better than the "Britain campaign"

Cheers!

yep, a campaign that was over when Germany surrendered unconditionally. But saying that the interruption of the aerial clashes over the Channel in 1940 was "the victory of a battle" is propaganda.

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Well to be honest I'm sold on all the 'historian perspective' stuff, I have to agree, but humans were involved so feelings are a 'factor', morale is a factor in conflict, it's another weapon in the armoury.
so German Morale 'had' to be affected by the first bit of resistance they got, the losses they suffered, it must have been a contributing factor to the decision to pack up the Bratwurst rations and send them east.

for 3 months the British fought almost expecting to lose, we didn't give up.

What I'm asking you Stern is maybe to get back in touch with your 'human' side instead of the robotic historian, and see how it feels.....

Trust me, sentiment is taken into account, but it can't determine historical facts

I believe in the importance of the celebrations for the Battle of Britain, if anything for the remembrance of "the few" and as a cause of aggregation and pride for a country, so I understand his moral and social value, but these aspects can't be of historical influence, it's a dangerous form that can take to a biased revisionism of historical events.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

Eh up, we have agreed to disagree but given the definition above.

Couple of things.

The bombing of civilians in the Blitz was to achieve a completely different stated objective from the objective at the start of the Battle of Britain.

And given your definition above where do say Trafalgar and Midway fit?

there's no breaking of frontlines: Tick for both
loss or gain or territory: Tick for both
disbandment of an army: Tick for both
Or any other sign that would identify it as a battle.... Well other than one side very clearly achieved it's objectives and one side didn't

Your 'logic' doesn't work Stern, sorry.

Regards Mike

I'm not an expert on Trafalgar, so I can't give you an assessment for that one, but Midway was indeed a gain of territory (it wasn't land per se, it was ocean control), and indeed the losses sustained by the Japanese were a critical hit from which they never fully recovered (unlike Germany in 1940).

[bongodriver]

yep, a campaign that was over when Germany surrendered unconditionally. But saying that the interruption of the aerial clashes over the Channel in 1940 was "the victory of a battle" is propaganda.

By this logic surely that means there were no 'battles' at all during WWII

it's a dangerous form that can take to a biased revisionism of historical events.

it seems to me the only ones to gain from any 'revisionism' are the losers......food for thought.

[scotchegg]

Disappointing though it is to have to advise people who like to cite their academic experience / credentials of this, please look up 'ad hominem', and then avoid it when discussing...erm...anything.