Ammunition power

II/JG54_Emil · #1 02-15-2009, 01:11 PM

This is something I found in the internet quoting Oleg.

Can someone explain (preferably Oleg himself) why there is a huge tendency to over-model allied guns and under-model axis guns? The only exception is the German MG 17 7.92 machine-gun which was mounted in the bombers.(the true bullet velocity is marled blue or red and added by me, I checked different soucres in the internet for one and the same gun)
Was it ever changed to historically correct?

I don´t want to bring up old discussion that probably already took place. But I suppose it´s similar with the flight-model (and I always wonderd why a 109 or a 190 is close to be unflyable with a hole in the wing, in contrast to some allied planes that even fly with some parts of the wing broken off)

I would hate to see the same happening again in SoW.
It should be historically correct.

Or otherwise all fly the same planetype to have a balanced game.

Quote:

Ammunition power

Oleg_Maddox
Rank: Creator of IL-2 Sturmovik:FB
Date: 08/14/02 12:56PM

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive )

Following order assigning combination of bullets/shells:
For example:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
Power – (both bullets/shells & splinters) – in modelled explosive equivalent.

Table
==========================

------ ShKAS 7.62 Machinegun (Russia)
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity = 869.0 true = 750
power= 0.0005

API
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity= 871.0 true = 750
power= 0.0005

T
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity= 869.0 true = 770
power = 0

------ Browning .303 (USA)
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
bullet weight = 0.010668491403778
velocity = 835.0 750 m/s
power= 0.0018

AP
bullet weight= 0.010668491403778
velocity= 835.0 750 m/s
power= 0

------ Browning .50 (USA)
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
bullet weight= 0.0485 43,3
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0.002

AP
bullet weight= 0.0485
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0

HE
bullet weight= 0.0485
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0.00148

------ MG 17 7.92 machinegun (Germany)
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.010
velocity = 810.0true 905m/s
power = 0

------ MG 81 7.92 Machinegun (Germany)
// AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.010 11,5g
velocity = 920.0 true 755-838 m/s
power = 0

------ MG 15 machinegun (Germany)
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.0128 64,5g
velocity = 760.0 true 905m/s
power = 0

------ MG 131 13mm machinegun (Germany)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight= 0.035
velocity = 710.0
power= 0.00148

AP
bullet weight= 0.034
velocity= 750.0
power= 0

------ UB 12.7 machinegun (Russia)
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
bullet weight= 0.0448
velocity = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
bullet weight= 0.051
velocity = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
bullet weight = 0.0428
velocity = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.0012

------ MG 151/15 15mm cannon (Germany)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight= 0.057
velocity = 960.0 true 1040 m/s
power = 0.0019

AP
bullet weight = 0.072
velocity= 859.0
power = 0

------ ShVAK 20mm cannon (Russia)
// APIT - HE

APIT
bullet weight = 0.096
velocity= 800.0 true 750-770 m/s
power= 0.001

HE
bullet weight = 0.0676
velocity= 800.0
power = 0.0068

------ MG 151/20 20mm cannon (Germany)
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG

APIT
bullet weight= 0.115
velocity= 710.0 true 860 m/s
power= 0.0036

HE
bullet weight= 0.115
velocity = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
bullet weight = 0.092
velocity= 775.0
power= 0.0186

------ MG/FF 20mm cannon (Germany)
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
bullet weight = 0.115
velocity= 580.0 true 700 m/s
power= 0.0036

HE
bullet weight = 0.115
velocity= 585.0
power= 0.0044

MG
bullet weight = 0.092
velocity = 690.0 true 700 m/s
power = 0.0186

------ Hispano Mk.I 20mm cannon (England)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight =0.129
velocity= 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
bullet weight = 0.124
velocity = 860.0
power = 0

------ VYa(Βί-23) 23mm cannon (Russia)
// SIT - API - API

SIT
bullet weight= 0.195
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
bullet weight= 0.201
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
bullet weight= 0.201
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.008

------ MK 103 30mm cannon (Germany)
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
bullet weight = 0.502
velocity = 752.0 true 860 m/s
power = 0.0 5.6

MG
bullet weight= 0.330
velocity = 900.0
power= 0.072

HE
bullet weight = 0.455
velocity = 800.0
power = 0.024

------ MK 108 30mm cannon (Germany)
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
bullet weight = 0.455
velocity = 500.0 true 540 m/s
power = 0.024

MG
bullet weight = 0.330
velocity = 525.0 true 540 m/s
power = 0.072 7.3

------ M4 37mm cannon (USA)
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
bullet weight = 0.604 680g
velocity = 612.0 true 580-610m/s
power = 0.044 2.8 kW/kg

------ ΝS-37 37mm cannon (Russia)
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
bullet weight= 0.735
velocity = 900.0
power= 0.0406

APT
bullet weight = 0.760
velocity= 880.0
power = 0

------ ΝS-45 45mm cannon (Russia)
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
bullet weight = 1.065
velocity = 780.0
power= 0.052

AP
bullet weight= 1.000
velocity = 850.0
power = 0.0

-------------

Oleg Maddox 1C:Maddox Games

Monguse · #2 02-15-2009, 01:27 PM

Maybe these will help

Weights and Measures
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

then this one

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

II/JG54_Emil · #3 02-15-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

Maybe these will help

Weights and Measures
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

link doesn´t work

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

I know the site and have some of the infromation from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

then this one

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

Unfortunately this threat doesn´t really explain why those guns where modelled wrong in the first place.

KG26_Alpha · #4 02-15-2009, 02:13 PM

Simply ............................ balancing.

Monguse · #5 02-15-2009, 02:42 PM

Links fixed

II/JG54_Emil · #6 02-16-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Simply ............................ balancing.

Sorry, I don´t by that one, there are too many things out of balance in favour of red planes.

If we only stick to the guns, we get an average velocity in m/s of:

Russia: 852,5m/s
Western Allies:794,2 m/s
Red Total: 826,6 m/s

Axis:690,6m/s

So where is the balance?

Thunderbolt56 · #7 02-16-2009, 12:19 PM

.50's are porked....

Wait a minute...I was having a bad dream, or deja vu...or a vision or something.

I can't answer your question, but here's a link that is informative as well - http://members.tele2.nl/harmstolk/gunpower.htm