Dryads = Imbalanced

[YENKO]

Yeah. It's a single-player game. One unit is way strongher than the rest? Great. You like them? Use them. You don't like them? Well, ignore them.Big deal. Still nobody tried to beat the game using peasants only. So no, the game is not broken. Don't fix it

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by YENKO

Yeah. It's a single-player game. One unit is way strongher than the rest? Great. You like them? Use them. You don't like them? Well, ignore them.Big deal. Still nobody tried to beat the game using peasants only. So no, the game is not broken. Don't fix it

That arguement didn't work in the past, and it is not going to work now. Just because this is a single player game, does it make it okay to have a unit that cost 1 Leadership, but with a single click of a button does 9999 damage to another stack? What? Thats absurd? Why can't you "just ignore it"? Game balance is important in a multiplayer game, but it is ALSO important in single player experiences too. And oh, exactly how do single players "just ignore" Dryads that are attacking them? Is there a "Ignore Dryad" choice in the game options? No, I didn't think so. Heck, by your arguement, since this is a single player game, is it perfectly okay to just have an "I Win" click power in Dryads? I mean, geez whiz if you don't like it just ignore it and don't use it right?

Yeah, that arguement is THAT dumb.

[Gatts]

Originally Posted by sleepy

That arguement didn't work in the past, and it is not going to work now. Just because this is a single player game, does it make it okay to have a unit that cost 1 Leadership, but with a single click of a button does 9999 damage to another stack? What? Thats absurd? Why can't you "just ignore it"? Game balance is important in a multiplayer game, but it is ALSO important in single player experiences too. And oh, exactly how do single players "just ignore" Dryads that are attacking them? Is there a "Ignore Dryad" choice in the game options? No, I didn't think so. Heck, by your arguement, since this is a single player game, is it perfectly okay to just have an "I Win" click power in Dryads? I mean, geez whiz if you don't like it just ignore it and don't use it right?

Yeah, that arguement is THAT dumb.

Sleepy - watch for "dumb" and similar words please, ok?
1.) This game is modable.
2.) Gameplay is about 30~45 hours, you get dryads near the game end and are usefull only on few islands... so maybe it was developers intend to to make some hours much easier - to not make the game only about difficult battles... but to enjoy some easy battles where the player would say "wow, this was easy... "
3.) Yenko's argument is very good IMHO, worked on many other singleplayer games, and works now and will always work...
4.) Civilization 1 is in my opinion best strategy game ever seen on PC, is single player (not talking about civnet) and semi-advanced players could very soon exploit some units that totally could overrun other civilizations, just by slight change in strategy... on the most difficulty levels... I never heard anyone complaining about "request on remove democracy and diplomats from the game - you may win with nearly no efforts"... as it totally did not work in civnet
5.) If you don't want spend time modding, you don't want remove the dryads from your stacks, you still want hard battles -> sorry, no cure right now...
6.) When playing the game again - players may have new motivation : "When I will get my overpowered dryads, it would help me to wing without loses and save time while traveling back for new units -> Hence higher score and nice screenshot in this forum for 0-loss achievement"
7.) For me are vampires making the game much more easier... I repeat - FOR ME... (this is quite subjective), but from the first minute in the game - my brain was overclocked to find a pattern - glitch, special combination/strategy that would make me the total victor in any battle... this is how human brain works -> tries to find "subways" that would get the brainowner max results with minimum investment... Congratulations! By finding this out, your brain works as designed... so about what you complain? Would you not be able to find a strategy that would make you able to win over "Impossible" enemy stack, you would be advised for Ginko / green tea or other brain supporting drugs and try again...
8.) I feel sorry for anyone who feels bored by finding powerful unit... but if he/she is not creative enough to take some action and remove the boredom, I have a flash news for such: It is impossible to 100% balance anything... even multilayer games are far away of balance... look at MMORPG forums-where players share farming places, mostly cheating like bugs/glithes... but their motivation is to have max level -> that is their "fun"...
9.) There are some nearly 100% balanced strategy games... chess, dame... but of course if you don't mind the "overpowered" fact that one player starts as first...
10.) being a developer, reading players comments of type:" I have found this overpowered unit, when you combine it with these 20 clicks and 5 skills and 3 artefacts and then use this sequence of special abilities and moves, and prepare and save and load and use these 12 spells... you can win after 24 rounds w/o loses) I would celebrate like Paris Hilton... as this would be my happiest reading in my developer sequel... -> why should be clear, if not clear, no need of worry... What is important -> how far is my definition of overpowered unit from the one for dryad-> My version: " When the battle starts, just click this button of this unit and you win..."... can you somehow feel the difference? No? Yes?... good luck

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by Gatts

Sleepy - watch for "dumb" and similar words please, ok?

Go re-read my post. I said the ARGUEMENT was dumb, not the person. You want to see personal attacks? Go re-read the way these pro-dryad people responded to one of my posts in the Tips forum in a thread called "Totally fed up with Dryads". In it you'll see lovely phrases such as "idiot", "whining", "crying", "shut up" etc. etc. hurled this way. I applaud you for wanting civility in this forum, but I find it interesting that you did NOT object to the way THOSE trolls posted even though you had replied in that thread. If you are the least bit honest and unbiased, I suggest you start denouncing the conducts of those people.

Originally Posted by Gatts

1.) This game is modable.
2.) Gameplay is about 30~45 hours, you get dryads near the game end and are usefull only on few islands... so maybe it was developers intend to to make some hours much easier - to not make the game only about difficult battles... but to enjoy some easy battles where the player would say "wow, this was easy... "
3.) Yenko's argument is very good IMHO, worked on many other singleplayer games, and works now and will always work...
4.) Civilization 1 is in my opinion best strategy game ever seen on PC, is single player (not talking about civnet) and semi-advanced players could very soon exploit some units that totally could overrun other civilizations, just by slight change in strategy... on the most difficulty levels... I never heard anyone complaining about "request on remove democracy and diplomats from the game - you may win with nearly no efforts"... as it totally did not work in civnet
5.) If you don't want spend time modding, you don't want remove the dryads from your stacks, you still want hard battles -> sorry, no cure right now...
6.) When playing the game again - players may have new motivation : "When I will get my overpowered dryads, it would help me to wing without loses and save time while traveling back for new units -> Hence higher score and nice screenshot in this forum for 0-loss achievement"
7.) For me are vampires making the game much more easier... I repeat - FOR ME... (this is quite subjective), but from the first minute in the game - my brain was overclocked to find a pattern - glitch, special combination/strategy that would make me the total victor in any battle... this is how human brain works -> tries to find "subways" that would get the brainowner max results with minimum investment... Congratulations! By finding this out, your brain works as designed... so about what you complain? Would you not be able to find a strategy that would make you able to win over "Impossible" enemy stack, you would be advised for Ginko / green tea or other brain supporting drugs and try again...
8.) I feel sorry for anyone who feels bored by finding powerful unit... but if he/she is not creative enough to take some action and remove the boredom, I have a flash news for such: It is impossible to 100% balance anything... even multilayer games are far away of balance... look at MMORPG forums-where players share farming places, mostly cheating like bugs/glithes... but their motivation is to have max level -> that is their "fun"...
9.) There are some nearly 100% balanced strategy games... chess, dame... but of course if you don't mind the "overpowered" fact that one player starts as first...
10.) being a developer, reading players comments of type:" I have found this overpowered unit, when you combine it with these 20 clicks and 5 skills and 3 artefacts and then use this sequence of special abilities and moves, and prepare and save and load and use these 12 spells... you can win after 24 rounds w/o loses) I would celebrate like Paris Hilton... as this would be my happiest reading in my developer sequel... -> why should be clear, if not clear, no need of worry... What is important -> how far is my definition of overpowered unit from the one for dryad-> My version: " When the battle starts, just click this button of this unit and you win..."... can you somehow feel the difference? No? Yes?... good luck

I noticed you dodged my original question : so IS it okay to have a unit that costs 1 Leadership but with a click power that does 9999 damage to another stack just because this is a single player game? If not, WHY not? I mean, its a single player game right? If you don't like it you just don't use it, correct?

Oh, and I noticed you also dodged the question about the fact that even in a single player game, the players are still forced to deal with Dryads using their cheesy attacks on them, because there are no "Ignore Dryad" checkbox in the game's options.

Pray tell, exactly how does a single unit of Dryad manage to put 200 Royal Snakes, 100 Inquisitors and 250 priests all to sleep? The game uses Leadership to balance a creature's powers, like Evil Beholder's Hypnosis, Demoness' Charm, etc. etc. But the game not only allows Dryads to break this rule, but it can totally render useless ALL applicable stacks in the battle field. Its an auto-hit, has unlimited range, and geez whiz it is RELOADABLE. Just this one power alone makes Dryads absurd, not to mention the fact that it has 10 or 12 other things going for it too to make them way out of balance.

And since you brought up Civilization I - imagine if Chariots were 10/5/4 instead of 4/2/2? Would YOU have supported it just because Civ I was only single player at the time? Golly, by your arguement I would "feel sorry" for anyone who would feel bored by finding such a powerful unit. What? You wouldn't want the devs to fix it? Why not just ignore the 10/5/4 Chariots?

Since when it is UNIMPORTANT for gaming elements to be balanced in single player experiences? You and those who take your position keeps on harping on this as if it is some kind of gaming industry fact. You seem to want the players, or the modding community to address a problem that the developers was being paid for in the first place. Sorry, no dice. Every successful single player game out there is where they are because they don't allow things like this.

Originally Posted by Gatts

If you don't want spend time modding, you don't want remove the dryads from your stacks, you still want hard battles -> sorry, no cure right now...

The fact that you think those who object to Dryads are *using* them is where your misconception begins. Tell me, would NOT USING the 10/5/4 Chariots in Civilization I have solved your problem when computer players were sending them against you? No, I didn't think so.

[taltamir]

some people have a moral opposition for fun... "all units must be the exact same, with no special abilities, no creative uses, and no extra powers"...
bah.

PS. And those people are even wrong, because they are wrongly focusing on the dryad as the ultimate unit, when it clearly isn't.

[Danny]

Dear Gamers of KB & Concerned Friends of "Dryads",

KB is a game for our pleasure and entertainment (or even experiment if we are willing). Hope everyone will take it easy.

I do not think they are grossly "overpowered". Personally, i like to cast "sheep" on them and watch them run around.

Ha ha. Happy holidays to all!!

Danny

[Stepsongrapes]

Originally Posted by taltamir

some people have a moral opposition for fun... "all units must be the exact same, with no special abilities, no creative uses, and no extra powers"...
bah.

PS. And those people are even wrong, because they are wrongly focusing on the dryad as the ultimate unit, when it clearly isn't.

I'm with Sleepy on this one.

The attempts at simplifying the dryad situation to black-and-white as a defense are misplaced.

No, Dryads aren't the "ultimate" unit.

No, Dryads don't completely "break" the game, especially if you don't use them.

So? Dryads are still a serious example of being off the curve that is set by the vast majority of the other units in the game.

Good game design, especially in a game that has repeatedly demonstrated that balance is a factor (e.g., leadership system to balance units, level, rune, and crystal system to balance spells), still means balancing elements to a reasonable level.

Dryads could do with a balance tweak, and are probably one of the biggest examples of a needed tweak in the game.

Being single-player does not equate with not needing good balance. It may make things less urgent, but if the developers care about this being a well-designed game (which they obviously do), fixing unbalanced elements like the druid would go a long way towards that goal.

[taltamir]

Good game design, especially in a game that has repeatedly demonstrated that balance is a factor (e.g., leadership system to balance units, level, rune, and crystal system to balance spells), still means balancing elements to a reasonable level.

Yet, nobody plays any of the perfectly balanced games, but people rave about games with a wide variety of unit strengths. Why? because overly balanced games are BORING. If nothing actually CHANGES about a unit except its physical appearance the game gets boring really fast.

With the current system though, you get a wide variety of units with a wide variety of abilities and/or basic power level, and people are having fun.

[ShadowTiger]

I disagree that Dryads are so great. I use primarily ranged units and I found that I can usually kill the enemy with magic/ranged attacks. On the off occasion that a unit manages to cross the battlefield it is met with ice thorns or the ice ball which will give me the one extra turn to kill him. A unit like archmages can shock enemies often enough while attacking and doing damage to make him more valuable. Plus archmages have 90 hp so they won't die from a giant's stomp or a necromancer's attack. (i just got resurrect in the elf land so i was using inquisitor + gift until now...).

When the computer controls dryads it wastes several turns. they cast sleep & thorns, and only 1 or 2 of my guys are sleepable and the thorns get killed right away with fire rain, (kills 1000-1400 thorns with my lvl 25 warrior with max chaos magic).

Point is... dragons are nice because they are tough and fast, but dryads are not as mobile and and lose a few here and there too easily. So they aren't worth an artifact slot that could benefit my overall strategy instead of one unit only. (not worth sprites or lake faeries either).

[Stepsongrapes]

Originally Posted by taltamir

Yet, nobody plays any of the perfectly balanced games, but people rave about games with a wide variety of unit strengths. Why? because overly balanced games are BORING. If nothing actually CHANGES about a unit except its physical appearance the game gets boring really fast.

With the current system though, you get a wide variety of units with a wide variety of abilities and/or basic power level, and people are having fun.

You seem to have a very simple view of balance meaning identical. Starcraft, which is held to be one of the most balanced games ever, is extremely popular precisely because balance as achievable with extreme diversity.

Your whole premise of balance can only be achieved with identical stats is disproven by this very game. Nearly the entire roster is well balanced, despite being diverse.

It's precisely this good balance everywhere else that makes the dryad stand-out like a sore thumb in an otherwise balanced and diverse game.

Again, oversimplifying the discussion to black-and-white strawmen isn't helpful: balance can be achieved without being identical.