Why no E4s

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by jojovtx

Because I like the simplicity of the auto prop and the m-geshoss. Has no impact on aircraft FM. Simply put.

The spit2a is pulled because of ahistorical FM matchup due to 1C fudging this game up. So it gets pulled. Fine and please bring it back as soon as 1C get's the FM stuff right. The E4 get's pulled because......the spit2a got pulled?

No, you said it's the same as all of the others, so I suggested you fly something else if that is the case. The point is that your logic was flawed, because the E4 actually has an advantage that you want otherwise you'd fly something else.

Just get on with it.

As for Doggles, well you've got it all worked out in your own head haven't you......

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Exactly that's why. Why should you pick out the E-4 with the SpitIIa together? FM and Handling? The FM same as other 109, the handling same simple as the RAF planes. The real reason is the armament, but it's so pathetic, that have to lie something different.

I know why, just picking holes in his argument.

Soon these guys are going to get hammered by upgraded Spitfires and get found out that they aren't the ace's they thought they were. My advice is "disengage, choose the right fight, don't play his game, be the condescending ace that I am, blah blah yadda yadda"

[jojovtx]

The only one condescending here is you osprey. Picking portions of an argument to quote and argue, then ignoring the rest in it's entirety is putting a false light and unfair spin to a discussion.

I bring to the table a valid argument that the spit2a is pulled due to FM disparity. The 109e4 is pulled for no reason other then the spit2a has been pulled.

Anyone can pick holes in an argument when they only argue portions of the argument and not the whole.

I argue the the 109e4 is the same FM envelope as other 109 models. That is my argument. Prop pitch control and m-geshoss have nothing to do with the aircrafts flight performance abosolutes. Matter of fact it has been stated that auto prop pitch tends to lessen the aircrafts flight envelope in trade for simplification. So once again you argue for the sake of argue and do not address the core issue at hand.

I am a 110 driver so this is largely moot to me. I only state my lack of understanding for lumping the two aircraft together if only one is the offending aircraft.

[Osprey]

If it is moot then why are you discussing it? That is the second oxymoron of the day for you. It is not condescending to point out flaws in your reasoning. I'm not arguing for either case, ultimately it's a decision of the server providers and if you don't like it then fly elsewhere.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Osprey

I'm not arguing for either case

Why are you posting in this thread, then?

[Blackdog_kt]

It's funny that the blue team's rides are what the red team's rides used to be in late war IL2 1946 matchups: Spit Ias or Hurris against 109s in CoD is like Fw190s against P51s in '46

I find it unreasonable to pull aircraft out of the set because another one got pulled (ie, straight up for balance reasons) but i also find it reasonable. No, i'm not crazy, it depends on the circumstances, let me explain.

The FMs are under revision. Since we can't have and use the accurate FMs yet, we need to keep the sim enjoyable for the most amount of people. That means we temporarily choose balance/playability over accuracy, at least until the FMs get corrected. I guess this is why most servers don't allow Spit II's and E4s and i'm fine by it, because there are also other considerations in the mix.

I mean, think of the bomber guys too. How is any team going to win a map if the bombers don't have a chance? Currently they can't fly in groups or with escort, due to the memory leak bug giving people CTDs. So, how are the Blenheims supposed to reach the target alone against m-shell armed E4s, or how are the heinkels and stukas supposed to do the same alone against fast climbing Spit IIs?

I think what the server admins are doing is correct: since the FMs are skewed let's skew the planeset too, to have a scenario where at least the broader, relative balance of power is close to the historical one.

After all, that's what matters most in the mission oriented servers. Absolute performance stats are all that's needed in terms of 1vs1 engagements, but a server is more than that, it's an entire tactical engagement and the thought process is different: each team has to be able to attack and defend in a manner reasonably similar to how it happened back in the 40s.

When the FMs are corrected then let's go all out and allow everything.

I mean, if what we read in the history books is true, it would be both challenging and balanced in a way and it would end up depending mostly on player tactics: the spit Mk.Ia will be faster than it currently is, but if all the FMs are fixed the RAF will still have the better turning aircraft and the LW will still have the faster aircraft, because the in-game 109 is also going to get beefed up (it's slower than the real one).

Heck, the 110 is probably going to be the fastest one of all and get its missing m-shells too, not to mention that about half of the fleet during BoB had the uprated engines making it even faster.

As you can see, allowing everything with corrected FMs will be very similar to what we have now: the LW will still be faster and harder-hitting, the RAF will still turn better. I think that's what the server admins tried to do and they succeeded, to get the broader picture correct until the FMs are adjusted to historical values.

[Martin77]

The sad think is, i often need many attempts to bring down a red fighter.
When i had a spit or hurri in target i had only a piece of second to shot and hit and then i hit only with two MGs.
When a spit is behind me i need two or 3 seconds to come out of its sight
cause due to the better turn rate they can hold me longer in sight and in this time i am very damaged due to the 2 second burst from 8 MGs.
The point is, when a hurri or a spit is able to shoot at me two times ,its over.
Dont forget the firepower of 8 MGs or the wider spreading!
I Rarely win a dogfight against good pilots since the E4 is restricted due to the lack of needed firepower. I damaged the plane but always not enough when the pilot is good and fly smart with saving energy is always able to turn the tide.
The reds have learned to fly their fighters very very well in the last months. Out climb tactics what worked some months ago didnt work so well now.
You need wider turns ( i dont mean turning) as before or a higher distance to the enemy to build the energy advantage and then i often loose the enemy due to the not good visibility of targets.


The argument with the advantage with the automatic prop pitch i dont se cause i turn it off and fly manually *on ear* for better performance.
When you fly on automatic you cant outrun or outclimb or outdive a good opponent.

[CaptainDoggles]

So, how are the Blenheims supposed to reach the target alone against m-shell armed E4s

Everyone assumes the minegeschoss just shreds bombers left and right. Honestly, it's trivially easy to down a Blenheim using only the MG-17s in the nose.

[Martin77]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Everyone assumes the minegeschoss just shreds bombers left and right. Honestly, it's trivially easy to down a Blenheim using only the MG-17s in the nose.

+1

I use cannons when MGs are empty

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Everyone assumes the minegeschoss just shreds bombers left and right. Honestly, it's trivially easy to down a Blenheim using only the MG-17s in the nose.

That's why we like the E-1