109 advice needed (climb)

[drewpee]

I agree that until the flight model is deemed to be accurate its some times hard to use historical tactics. The other problem is the amount of tossa activity when large egos add their (cough) advice. Other than that genuine advice should always be considered and appreciated.

[Whiski]

Very interesting post. I would be hard pressed to determine a winner of a 109 vs hurri (both pilots experten) on level playing field.

Tactics, counter tactics, gunnery, so many variables to consider. Barring the fm of the planes in CLoD, the 109 did have superior flight characteristics, but they could be out flown by an experienced pilot. Tactics is the deciding factor here, who uses the right tactic at that precise moment to get the advantage. I think of it like a chess game, all the moves during the game try to lead your opponent into a position for you to achieve victory, whether or not your opponent takes your bait is another story, or will he use your moves against you. Being able to plan ahead (as in chess) is a big factor.

Whiskey

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Sven

I think the Hurricane Rotol is the best plane allies have excluding the Spit II.

It is faster and climbs better than Spitfire Mk.Ia, but on the other hand, it's much less maneuvrable. Speed makes Hurri more dangerous for 109s, I agree, but in my personal opinion, Rotol Hurricane and Mk.Ia Spitfire are equally good and capable, choice depends on preference of the pilot. (Some need the maneuvrability, some need the speed and stability). I suppose the FMs will be altered as having a Hurricane that outperforms Spitfire is bizarre 109 needs attention, too.

Originally Posted by Sven

A good Hurricane pilot is well able to defeat a 109 in manoeuvres the 109 should excel atm.

PILOT is not able to defeat a PLANE. If you talk about good pilot in a Hurricane, then he's defeating the (perhaps not as good) pilot in a Messerschmitt. Messerschmit as such (plane) is much better fighter than Hurricane (plane). Pilot can obviously close the gap in performance.

If you can, please do specify which maneuvers do you mean.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Whiski

Tactics, counter tactics, gunnery, so many variables to consider. Barring the fm of the planes in CLoD, the 109 did have superior flight characteristics, but they could be out flown by an experienced pilot. Tactics is the deciding factor here, who uses the right tactic at that precise moment to get the advantage. I think of it like a chess game, all the moves during the game try to lead your opponent into a position for you to achieve victory, whether or not your opponent takes your bait is another story, or will he use your moves against you. Being able to plan ahead (as in chess) is a big factor.

Whiskey, excellent post - I am using the chess game comparsion very often, too regarding dogfight. (1 on 1)

[KeBrAnTo]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

You say "less mistakes" but if both the pilots are "identical" and as experten they don't make mistakes on their own then they are forced to reach the plane's limits, because, like you say, they have to fly at their best.

Yes, but I think that sooner or later one of the two will end up making one mistake forced by the good piloting of the other pilot, even if they are experten, it's just a matter of time IMHO.

[SNAFU]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Of course, personal opinion, feel free to disagree. 109 is faster, more powerful (except at high alt), climbs better, dives better, rolls better, has cannons, no problem to push your sexy yellow nose down . But if you slow down, you're dead. I am talking good 109 pilot against equally good Hurricane pilot. And this good 109 pilot will not even think about slowing down into scissors or turning with you in a Hurricane. He will scissor with you at high speed though, because that's when your Hurricane becomes a brick. When he's good and confident enough, he will outturn you in descending spiral with no problems at all - you'll be struggling in a Hurricane. He will be able to extend from this spiral (shall he not suceed shooting you down) with far more E than you and go vertical and do whatever he wants. Your only chance will be good defense making him waste ammo, but if he's not doing anything silly, it's just matter of time and you will lose. Just an example...

9 out of 10 duels in favour of a Messerschmitt



I am talking 1 on 1 - aeroplane that extends horizontally or vertically is not losing, the fight is finished when one of the two gets shot down. Bombers don't matter! I am talking more fighter against a fighter at co-E situation, not multi-target enviroment.



I would extend (possibly vertically) and then I would repeatedly hit him with bullets untill he crashes and dies. If you start turning with Hurricane, slowing down in the process or if you're thinking about horizontal scissors in front of a Hurricane, you're dead.

This is quite hypothetical as co-E fights rarely happen and sane German pilot would extend ond come back with an E advantage (RAF dude can't extend as he's slower), but if we take classic duel, 1st merge no shooting, co-E, co-alt => 109 will climb higher and will possibly win the fight. Hands down that is.

Well, sorry not convinced, but no more questions. I suggest to the interested reader to read between the lines and not follow blindly hands down.

[robtek]

I believe a dogfight might be compared to speed-chess, maybe with a 1 or 2 pawn handicap.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by robtek

I believe a dogfight might be compared to speed-chess, maybe with a 1 or 2 pawn handicap.

Couldn't said it better myself.

Fly without being seen. Keep your head moving always looking behind you. And communicate with other 109's on comms please! Set up a perfect shot with a second guy - it's a work of art. I often will just turn my head and watch the entire thing develop. Sometimes they tell me which way to turn.

If you're not on comms you're at a huge disadvantage.

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by reflected

...When flying a 109, it feels like a brick...

It is a brick. That's why you need discipline in the equation. Speed is life, I will never enter deliberately in scissors or other TnB crap against the RAF.

Regards.

PS: Next patch will bring us concrete elevator like the flying coffins we had in 1946 (don't know about the current state of the game, cause I am grounded for +- 2 years, never to return again).

[KeBrAnTo]

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

PS: Next patch will bring us concrete elevator like the flying coffins we had in 1946 (don't know about the current state of the game, cause I am grounded for +- 2 years, never to return again).

It wouldn't surprise me.