109 cant do XXXX anymore.

[TomcatViP]

Great. I hve to see it by my self hoping that the beta will be released soon on steam. thx !

[Bpdslayer]

Just a week ago I started a thread to bitch about the 109;s XXXX performance. But yesterday online i suddenly became an ace in the plane. Able to out-turn spits and huri's in at least 8-10 sustained turn fights. Sometimes they stalled before me, and other time i inched my way towards their six. On average i was able to shoot an enemy plane down and land at least 2 thirds of the sorties. I dunno if it was just my luck that nite, but the 109 didnt seem such a bad plane in turn and burn dogfight. I even felt I had the advantage, cause as soon as i noticed someone on my six, i could easily disengage by shallow diving followed by a gradual climb away. Reallie had fun online, even though sounds was missing most of the time...

Oh does anyone know wat the 109's 20mm elektron ammo is? i loaded that into my cannons... seemed to work....

[335th_GRAthos]

Good to hear that, thanks for sharing! Nice to have fun and it seems you enjoyed it

Yes, I hate them (Bf109ers) when they do that (swallow dive and climb).
But I feel sorry for them when they enter turn fight (despite what you wrote about your turning capabilities experience), the Bf makes its fame true honor, it was not made for turning fights...

I am sorry to have to fly Spitfires now but the no-possibility to center the gunsight and be able to track bandits around moving your head is a deal-breaker for me

How do you cope with the gunsight yourself?

~S~

[Sven]

the Bf makes its fame true honor, it was not made for turning fights...

From pilot accounts the 109 could turn very well:

Me 109 E:
"The Bf 109s also had leading edge slats. When the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slats shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slats coming out frightenened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slats would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one had throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slats were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.
One had to enter the turn correctly, then open up the engine. It was a matter of feel. When one noticed the speed becoming critical - the aircraft vibrated - one had to ease up a bit, then pull back again, so that in plan the best turn would have looked like an egg or a horizontal ellipse rather than a circle. In this way one could out-turn the Spitfire - and I shot down six of them doing it. This advantage to the Bf 109 soon changed when improved Spitfires were delivered."
- Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous by Hannu Valtonen; Hurricane & Messerschmitt, Chaz Bowyer and Armand Van Ishoven.

[Lixma]

Let's examine this passage....

For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.

Starting with....

For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true.

So basically what this pilot is saying is that the Spitfire pilots who report being able to out-turn a 109 are not to be believed. But we are supposed to take his word as truth when the situation is reversed?

I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.

And as he just said "it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109."

But we're not supposed to believe them, so that's OK.

Mmmmm.....

And don't get us started on the relative skills of the pilots involved, the condition of the airframes, condition of the engines, relative energy levels during the turns etc...etc....

In CoD I've out-turned both Spitfires and Hurricanes many times in the 109, but I can still say with confidence that the 109 does not turn as well as either British aircraft.

[Sven]

I do not get your point entirely Lixma on that one. He never said anything about spitfire pilots, he's talking about inexperienced Luftwaffe pilots who apparently didn't like to fly their plane beyond the point where the slats came out. Those same inexperienced pilots could tell you that the spit could outturn you.

In CoD I've out-turned both Spitfires and Hurricanes many times in the 109, but I can still say with confidence that the 109 does not turn as well as either British aircraft.

That was not my point, my point is that the 109 was not a bad turner at all.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Sven

I do not get your point entirely Lixma on that one. He never said anything about spitfire pilots, he's talking about inexperienced Luftwaffe pilots who apparently didn't like to fly their plane beyond the point where the slats came out.

I thought he was referring to pilots who flew during the BoB generally, not just Luftwaffe.

My mistake.

[Strike]

I think this once again points out how important pilot skill is. Think of the variables...

no 1 - When stalling vibration/turbulence starts most rookies will ease off the turn, whilst aces know they have a little more turning they can squeeze in.

no 2 - Perhaps some pilots struggle under high G-loads, and prefer not to turn tighter than what's already uncomfortable for them? (even though their lives are at stake)

no 3 - Some pilots probably weren't even aware that they were being chased/fired upon until the damage was done. (Perhaps the target was focusing on something else and turning towards it more gently than if in a dogfight).

These are just a few factors, but you get the idea that whilst we have the luxury of flying these planes in many sims and comparing them, the real pilots probably had little clue/knowledge about enemy planes initially until they saw them in combat. And what little evidence of performance they could draw from in a stressed/heated dogfight was probably highly rough estimations from subjective points of view.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by Sven

From pilot accounts the 109 could turn very well:

Sven, I do not know how much you have been flying this IL2 sim, I presume enough (I can not judge since your membership is rather "new" (2010).

I have been flying a lot this sim, almost 8 years (I stopped counting) exclusively Bf109
(It is my first two months ever I fly Spitfires because I can not stand the stupid non-centered gunsight mode with free head movement).
As such, I will tell you that you are wrong in your deduction.

I am not proud of flying Spitfires and I rarely enjoy good dogfights, I do feel sorry if a Bf109 continues a right turn following me for more than 270 degrees (probably they read the same passage as the one you quoted) because afterwards, they die...

So yes, the passage you quoted can be right but, you die if you insist on out-turning a Spitfire.
Same as the FW190 in IL2FB had a much tighter turn radius than the Spitfire, for the first 270°, after that you were a sitting duck...

I will not spend time explaining what an "energy-fighter" and what an "angles-fighter" is but you can find a lot of information about it in the internet if you like.

~S~

[Sven]

You're taking a perspective from inside the game not reality.

I've been playing for a long while, since Forgotten Battles came out. Flying Axis side exclusively.

You are 100 % right that ingame (1946) I've never even attempted to outturn a spitfire simply because it is pointless. History tells us that it was quite an effective tactic ( Downing 6 of them that way can hardly be luck ), and there are more quotes I can dig up which state the same.

Yet you cannot use that for any FM modelling for obvious reasons, which Lixma also correctly said:

And don't get us started on the relative skills of the pilots involved, the condition of the airframes, condition of the engines, relative energy levels during the turns etc...etc....

My point was only that the 109 is not a bad turner, it was considered effective by experienced pilots.

I personally would prefer BnZ, far safer and more fitted for canon armed birds IMO. Good dogfights I rarely have with Spitfires, scraping them off the ground is no fun. I miss the 6K + fights with P47 and P51 in 1946.