droids are NOT overpowered:-)

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Come on, for 5th lvl units ? Asking for to much now
I agree , it`s great item for 3-4 lvl units cause %, but if you use 1-2lvl not so useful. For me best option for Steam armor are : Paladin/Knight, Demon/Executioner or Orc veteran/Trackers, Black knigh/Ancient vampires high basic attack/defense.
Funny thing, Steam armor is native dwarf race but is least useful for them. Dwarf and Foreman almost never used units and it doesnt effect droids, so only units that benefit from dwarf race are Mechanic/Alchemist
All in all good item, and -1 speed is not so big problem with Adrenaline skill, or 1 cast of Mass haste.

Am I? Look at Belt of the Victor.. +50% defense, +1 speed, AND works on level 5 AND works on summons.

Dwarves always make cool stuff that they can never take advantage of. Oooh mithril weapons and armor? Let the humans and elves use it.

[Fatt_Shade]

Ok Belt of victor have imba bonuses, but it consists of 3 other items, and it is much harder to acquire, and Steam armor you can buy almost every time in Montero for only 85K gold. That`s why i thought it would be overkill to give 30% att/def for 5th lvl also.
On other topic, i didnt want to start new tread so i`ll ask here. When cleaning basement of Dark Mistikus castle, you can use his Dark ritual to upgrade undead units. My question is this : it says lvl 0/3, experience 0/10. What happens when you fill to 3/3 and 10/10, is there some bonus, or that is famous 93rd Quest ?
I never get those numbers cause i upgrade skeletons, zombies,ghosts and vampires and only get 2/3 and 5/10. Dont know how to raise more. Any1 knows what those lvl`s experience are for ?

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by impy

I have not tried it personally, just following the ckdamascus list above about units affected by steam armor. Why shouldn't it be good? The otherwise terrible drawback = -1 speed can be easily offset by belt of winner or adrenaline skill. Besides vampires in their bat form have speed of 5, so even reduction to 4 i find acceptable.

'easily offset by belt of the winner'? That's... a composite end game item you likely will never see, or only after defeating Scrounger! Also, it is still -1 movement compared to it!

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclopi or whatever.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Ok Belt of victor have imba bonuses, but it consists of 3 other items, and it is much harder to aquire, and Steam armor you can buy almost every time in Montero for only 35K gold. That`s why i thought it would be overkill to give 30% att/def for 5th lvl also.
On other topic, i didnt want to start new tread so i`ll ask here. When cleaning bacement of Dark Mistikus castle, you can use his Dark ritual to upgrade undead units. My question is this : it says lvl 0/3, experiance 0/10. What happens when you fill to 3/3 and 10/10, is there some bonus, or that is famous 93rd Quest ?
I never get those numbers cause i upgrade skeletons, zombies,ghosts and vampires and only get 2/3 and 5/10. Dont know how to raise more. Any1 knows what those lvl`s experiance are for ?

Considering I never upgrading units using Mistikus and I have gotten the "mysterious 93rd" quest (which does not really exist, just a bug where it improperly sums up the total quests), I would suppose, no.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclop or whatever.

30% att/def for 4th lvl units isn`t that much ??? Pls tell me your joking. All 4th lvl`s have 25+basic att/def so this armor give them +9 for BOTH att/def!!! +18 stats isn`t enough ( for Paladin is +10/+12 att/def) ? Name 1 other item that gives so much attributes.
There are so few high bonus items Dead skull +5 int/att, Mithril shield +8 def, Axe of ice III lvl +7def and that tooth +7 att you get from K`tahu. Thats it, no more so strong items. Plus this is ARMOR, there are no other items that fit in that slot witch give better stats.
If you use 5th lvl units, obviously this armor is bad choice but for other unit lineups it`s great item. All humans, dwarfs (except droids), undead(except ghosts), many elfs, and some neutrals. So there are alott of builds that would benefit from this item. In my opinion only other Armor/Dress that can compare to Steam are : Dragon cloak (for Mages), Steel leaf (for 3-4 lvl army - Orc team, 100% crit archer lineups, or mass summon army), Dress of mages and last but not least Leather dress
And since there are no Armor/Dress that give -% leadership for some units (Inquisitor blade, Orc ear . . . ) in late game this armor it great choice. Of if you play dragon army with +3 morale, or Shrek team go for some other item, but for any other army consisted of 3-4 lvl units Steam armor is better then most of others.

I just now figured out imba fact for Mage+Elenhel combo : you can equip 3 sets. Undead set (2 artifacts+gloves in hero), Darkness set (helm+artifact in hero) , Vampire set(weapon hero, artifact companion). I`m playing it now and wondering should reload since lvl 12, and pick Moro dark instead Elenhell, just ot get that stupid Shard of darkness and exploit this retarded combo. Black knights and Ancient vampires are ridiculously strong. It gives some impression that developers intended to overpower this class

[impy]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

'easily offset by belt of the winner'? That's... a composite end game item you likely will never see, or only after defeating Scrounger! Also, it is still -1 movement compared to it!

Also 30% to the stats of a level 4 unit is rarely all that much. I don't recall the beefiest level 4, but I think it might be around 30 attack defense? Probably less. And that's only +9 attack and Defense. That's MAX. I can find decent items for that slot that give good bonus', that don't decrease my speed by one, and effect my dragons or cyclopi or whatever.

Zechnophobe, this thread started as a discussion about pretty much single unit challenge - droids, black knights, vampires..That's how my answer should have been understood, i was not talking about standard gameplay & line-up. Besides, I did not say steam armor was the best, but it is certainly amongst the best. Debate which armor is the best in standard gameplay heavily depends on opposition. When fighting Gremlion upgraded magician cowl is probably the best. For regular fights I always liked slippery cuirass etc.

On the lighter note, I started this laid back playthrough aiming for high level intellect mage, no kiting, no scanner.
So far in Verona, and I cannot believe my luck
Debir - novice dress
Scarlet - skull of pain
Bolo - novice staff
Rusty - novice dress 2, battlemage helmet, hand of necropolis
Verona - novice staff 2, usurer's ring, ring of mind, ancient amulet, 2 x bronze ring.
That's extra 38 intellect so far guaranteed.
find savegame at level 1 attached, if anyone is looking for playing int. oriented mage

[Fatt_Shade]

As you said solo unit challenge, steam armor can be good item for many fights.
I wonder how come so far no1 mentioned solo Paladin stack. Good tank, easy to resurrect, and kicks ass against undead and demons. They have crappy initiative and speed, but easily fixed with Adrenaline skill, and if you manage to get Inquisitor`s blade they would go to 176 leadership/unit. But this challenge would be best for Paladin hero and his +40% physical dmg medal.
Last game i played with Warrior and found 2 Battle axe`s, and Drill which got my paladins to 27-33 basic dmg, and with Hell breath spell +52% fire dmg (3rd lvl give 40% but with Firestorm necklace it get`s to 52%), which finally was 40-50 physical/fire dmg on 4th lvl unit . For Paladin hero this could go up to 45-56 ,for only 220 leadership Better then some 5th lvl units !
So far only units that can compare with him are Royal thorn (f...ing hard to keep alive) with Crown of blackthorn 40-60 basic dmg (61-91 with Hell breath for 380 leadership/unit), and ofc his Majesty and Royal highness overpowered Black knight 20-27 basic (43-64 with Rising fury and Hell breath for only 120 leadership/unit 3 times less then those unit above).

I might try this next play through. Paladin hero, Paladin unit Companion Gaudi/Agraves (not sure which is better). Question is next : to use Inquisitor blade for bigger army (-20% leadership cost=25% more units), or Drill/Battle axe for nice dmg (would be 30-37 basic dmg this way) but no Att bonus (untill Frenzy kicks in after couple of turns in fight). It`s obvious to go for Blade, but high dmg Paladin is just hilarious to look

I`we read on some other treads that some ppl go solo Bone dragon. I get it easy to resurrect with Evlin, and pretty low leadership for 5th lvl. But i dont get it how they kill plants/undead/droids ??? Very high poison resistance=Bone dragons have hard time killing any1

As for your save file, thx might try it. I saw somewhere on forum that 70+ int mages make 12-20k dmg with Black hole per turn, damn

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

As you said solo unit chalange, steam armor can be good item for many fights.
I wonder how come so far no1 mentioned solo Paladin stack. Good tank, easy to resurrect, and kicks ass against undead and demons. They have crappy initiative and speed, but easily fixed with Adrenaline skill, and if you manage to get Inquisitor`s blade they would go to 176 leadership/unit. But this challenge would be best for Paladin hero and his +40% physical dmg medal.
Last game i played with Warrior and found 2 Battle axe`s, and Drill which got my paladins to 27-33 basic dmg, and with Hell breath spell +52% fire dmg (3rd lvl give 40% but with Firestorm necklace it get`s to 52%), which finally was 40-50 physical/fire dmg on 4th lvl unit . For Paladin hero this could go up to 45-56 ,for only 220 leadership Better then some 5th lvl units !
So far only units that can compare with him are Royal thorn (f...ing hard to keep alive) with Crown of blackthorn 40-60 basic dmg (61-91 with Hell breath for 380 leadership/unit), and ofc his Majesty and Royal highness overpowered Black knight 20-27 basic (43-64 with Rising fury and Hell breath for only 120 leadership/unit 3 times less then those unit above).

I might try this next playthrough. Paladin hero, Paladin unit Companion Gaudi/Agraves (not sure witch is better). Question is next : to use Inquisitor blade for bigger army (-20% leadership cost=25% more units), or Drill/Battle axe for nice dmg (would be 30-37 basic dmg this way) but no Att bonus (untill Frenzy kicks in after couple of turns in fight). It`s obvious to go for Blade, but high dmg Paladin is just hilarious to look

I`we read on some other treads that some ppl go solo Bone dragon. I get it easy to resurrect with Evlin, and pretty low leadership for 5th lvl. But i dont get it how they kill plants/undead/droids ??? Very high poison resistance=Bone dragons have hard time killing any1

As for your save file, thx might try it. I saw somewhere on forum that 70+ int mages make 12-20k dmg with Black hole per turn, damn

Curse both of you. I lost a lot of my life doing calculations and such... I must... resist.

Oh man, I don't want to get sucked into all of this again. I think when I did do the math for Super Paladin build, they weren't TOO bad but the problem was ... paladins are generally slow. I guess adrenaline can fix this...

Fairly certain that in the end, I wasn't that terribly impressed with the final damage. It was pretty darn high, but compared to the Shrek team, you don't get the same longevity and you need some time frenzying it up. Compared to archer teams, you waste quite a few rounds either running, or casting haste, etc. You can't start off doing real damage without blowing a spell away.

You could mix it up a little, so it isn't pure solo units. Loreangelicus was a big fan of droid/bone/blackknight sort of armies. However, mixing paladins runs into the same problem: speed. You pour all your resources into making paladins the ultimate killing machine, but you still need to waste rounds in allowing the to do damage.

Maybe I'm wrong though (since paladins are inherently highly resistant to a lot of damage). Just that the power of the Shrek team was the ability to drain at least one guy's attack round.

Also, paladins probably work best in DUAL stacks so they can second wind each other. They really were made to be a complementary unit.

Finally, despite the Paladin classes awesome +40% damage boost, the warrior MIGHT still end up being a better. I think when I did the math, the Paladin class with paladins does do more damage, but not by much. Note, this is before Crossworlds.

Warrior have the extra weapon slot AND they have counter-attack from Crossworlds which most likely works with paladins. This is what made the Shrek team shine, and I am sure it would make a paladin team shine too.

Being able to deal up to 4X more damage per round is tremendous and overcomes the Paladin damage class advantage by far.

I'd strongly consider to look into using the Warrior instead.

This also makes me come to the sad conclusion that the Paladin class really has less utility (besides top score runs, easy voice of the dragon, solo stack - resurrection runs) and probably a few other weird cases.

[Fatt_Shade]

I just now figured out were both wrong here `ckdamascus`
This tread goes for solo unit run 14 fight end game. So no special class skills. On other hand old skills : Bloodlust would be useless in this run, but Paladins Resurrection will give 30% more on spell and units ability (every paladin with Prayer resurrect 31HP).
But just for sake or conversation lest think this through. We mixed bonuses from Warrior and Paladin.
+3Att is for killling Lizard units, Paladin gets +3def for undead from medal, neither is available for this run. Warrior gets +15 Rage and Paly +40% dmg is reachable easy.
Again Warrior sucks, bonus rage useless comparing bonus dmg.
Warrior have counterstrike which is great for any humanoid except undead. Why i have no f...ing idea, since it works for lake/forest fairy for Gods sake. And steam armor give bonuses for almost all undead so they are obviously humanoids. Then why not counterstrike for vampire/blackies ??? But Paladin have also special skill, lets not forget Holy armor Counterstrike wont work against Bosses, but Holy armor will. So i`ll stay with solo Paladin hero/unit idea (just on paper) i`ll leave impy to try if he want Because he clearly have knack for this business.

[Fatt_Shade]

Originally Posted by impy

On the lighter note, I started this laid back playthrough aiming for high level intellect mage, no kiting, no scanner.
So far in Verona, and I cannot believe my luck
Debir - novice dress
Scarlet - skull of pain
Bolo - novice staff
Rusty - novice dress 2, battlemage helmet, hand of necropolis
Verona - novice staff 2, usurer's ring, ring of mind, ancient amulet, 2 x bronze ring.
That's extra 38 intellect so far guaranteed.
find savegame at level 1 attached, if anyone is looking for playing int. oriented mage

Nice int items, and thx for save file but why o why pink pet dragon and skipped training ground ?
For high int mage, green dragon would be better, and those fights can get you to firemage medal faster and some chests could get something even better, i have once found mithrill shield in second chest in battle. And free +1 att/def items are better then no item at all until get/find some better ones. Also you get free lvl after training and runes to get you started.
Dont get me wrong, thx for save and sharing good luck with int mage build (i personally have never seen 2 novice dresses in game, 2 princess yes but never novices). But you made some weird choices on start my man