Constructive comments on BOB historical accuracy in Acft skins/markings

[Friendly_flyer]

Unlike Doolittle, I do not mind if it is possible to put markings from a Spitfire squadron on a Hurricane (or a He 111 for that matter). Neither do I object to being able to change squadron code colour, size or placement, nor the possibility of making "fantasy" squadrons. It is a game after all, and made for enjoyment.

I do guess that squadrons come with a sort of default for their markings (also regarding colour, placement etc), at least for the kites they actually flew. I realize that the markings varied even within squadrons and varied with time (the fin-flashes on the Hurricanes being a good example, they went from non in early 1940, through various "large" versions during the summer to be replaced with the regulation 24'' by 27'' square at various points during from late summer to the end of the battle), but some sort of "typical" settings for each squadrons would be nice. When a non-historical plane/squadron is used, the default setting should be the one most common for the plane.

[DoolittleRaider]

With regard to St.G76 use of the Griffin emblem, the Director of the EOE project stated this in a recent post at TOCH on the subject:
"I just did a quick run through of examples of I./StG 76 images in our DB (51 of them) and this insignia appears to have been universally used during the WC Blitzkrieg of May-June, and there are a few examples of it with the 1939-style fuselage crosses which presumably date back to 1939, and likely to the Polish Campaign."



It is really a shame that Heinz Migeod passed away two months ago before this discussion/thread arose. First hand accounts and memories surely superceed a stack of supposedly well-researched books,or tertiary research derived from such secondary books/sources.


He was there, he flew with 2./I./St.G76 and 2./I./St.G3; his Flugbuch clearly shows that he was flying his Ju-87 Stuka S1+DK in June and still flying it on 10 July a day after some Luftwaffe orders had been published redesignating his unit as 2./I./St.G3. It is very difficult to believe that he and his Staffel mates would have removed their St.G76 griffon emblems in the midst of an ongoing battle/campaign, then at a later date after their less than one month involvement in the BofB, re-applied those same emblems as the unit re-deployed to the Balkans. Heinz in his interviews made no mention of any such 'temporary/interim' removal.

Heinz Migeod in July 2010 with his shall I say 'cherished' I./St.G76, and I./St.G3 griffon emblem.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by Friendly_flyer

...When a non-historical plane/squadron is used, the default setting should be the one most common for the plane.

I totally agree with regard to default settings! The typical, most commonly seen/documented, version of paint schemes, unit ID code lettering, fin-flashes, placement of serial numbers, should be used...not the anomalous versions seen rarely. I refer, again, to the most commonly seen Aligned Code letters, versus the non-aligned/stepped variation.

[Rodolphe]

...


There are also some stories about Heinz-Georg Migeod in the February 2011 edition of Fly Past.


Spotlight Junkers Ju 87:

• Farewell to England
• Tide of War
• Bouncing Kittyhawks
• Down in the Desert

Bouncing Kittyhawks

...

I was 400 to 500 metres high and, with no engine, had to force-land.
It was all silent with the battle now behind me when my Bordfunker shouted;
Turn right - Fighter behind us !
I put the nose down, dived and landed but the fighter didn't shoot; He was a gentleman.

...

http://www.flypast.com/view_issue.asp?ID=797


...

[DoolittleRaider]

Very interesting! Thanks for the heads up, Rodolphe.

If you've not seen it, here is the interview of Heinz concerning the 11 Nov '42 'Bouncing Kittyhawks' engagement, including a recreation of the events of that day using IL2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHyWM...layer_embedded

Unfortunately, in spite of my obvious penchant for historical accuracy, we were unable to obtain custom historically accurate skins in time to be included in this video recreation, the expeditious completion of which was a primary consideration back in May 2010. (I say 'we', but the video in this case was actually made in its entirety by 'Biltongbru'...My contribution at the Migeod website was primarily that of providing supporting historical research and gathering customized IL-2 skins.)

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by jameson

I have to say that your "catholic" rules regarding Spitfire lettering are a bit over the top

Speaking of over the top.............Thank goodness he wasn't being "anglican!"

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

You are making suggestions based on development screenshots; Oleg has made it clear that those do not represent the level of "historical accuracy" that will be in the final product. You have a lot of excellent info but at this stage of development these exterior markings are all to be taken as "place-holders".

Re-igniting this thread. Several posts in this thread a month or more ago were similar to the one above. They expressed the opinion (or paraphrased an Oleg comment) that all the weekly update Screencaps were merely 'fillers', WIP's, etc, and that historical accuracy considerations and critiques were therefore unfounded, inappropriate.....Not to worry oneself over. Assurances were made that the the final product would, of course, show historically correct skins.

Since then, there have been a number of new postings around the internet, including unofficial videos and official Trailers for the Product.

Every Spitfire shown in any screencap or video has depicted the misaligned, 'stepped', Code Letter pattern...which was quite clearly the exception to the norm of WWII RAF code letter pattern. Easily an estimated 90%, admittedly not all, of all Spitfire photos and artist 'Profiles' show the letters horzontally aligned.

On the other hand, all COD Hurricanes seem to have the code letters correctly/appropriately aligned.

Now that Release of COD is just a bit over one month away, can one assume that the Spitfires will, in fact, have historically accurate skins for those RAF Sqdns included? After all, if the default template for all the SOW:BOB Spit skins had been created during WIP development with the stepped, non-aligned place holder lettering, surely there has been sufficient time to make the required correction before release of COD.

Bottom line: If the lettering can be done correctly for the Hurricanes and other aircraft (the Blenheims for example),it would seem easily doable/correctable for the Spitfires as well...before release.

imho

[FlatSpinMan]

Commented over at Ubi but just watched the video. Very very interesting. Thanks to you and Biltongbru for making it. It really helped tell the story.

[DoolittleRaider]

I posted the commetns below in the 4 March Update Thread, but I am putting them here also so as to keep all comments on RAF and LW ID Code lettering in one thread....just in case someone wants to use this as a quick reference to correcting the COD skins at some point:

Very nice wallpapers! Oleg and team are doing a great job; all aircraft look realistic and historically correct as far as I know (I'm not particularly knowledgable on detailed features of aircraft design).

In this thread, http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17959, I did offer some constructive comments with regard to historical accuracy in aircraft markings, both RAF and LW, specifically unit/aircraft Identification Codes.

I have to constructively note again that the markings(code letters) on the two Stukas in the Stuka Wallpapers are incorrect...as had been the code letter markings on some Bf110's in an earlier update. A small point, perhaps, but one offered with good intentions and constructively.

The Stuka S2+AC would have been the mount of the Commander of II Gruppe of St. G 77.
S2 would designate St. G77
The third letter refers to the unique aircraft of a 'unit'. Its color is based on the unit/staff it belonged to.
The last letter refers to the Staffel or Gruppe...in this case "C", which is the letter for II Gruppe Stab (staff).
All Gruppe Stab (I., II., and III.) aircraft had Green third letters.
Thus, the "A" on this Stuka should be Green, not white.

The Stuka S2+KC would be the aircraft of some other officer on the II. Gruppe staff, though it would be unusual for it to be a "K" (tenth or so aircraft of the staff), as the Gruppe Staff probably didn't have more than 4 or 5 officers, I should think. Again, the third letter "K" should be Green, not white, because it is a Gruppe staff aircraft.




The use of the older Narrow white-bordered balkankreuz rather than the Wide white-border has been noted in the other thread,as well.

[DoolittleRaider]

That GUI screen is interesting...I'd overlooked it in the updates, I guess.

However, it's not clear what the Color Selections are for. It shows three color choices for RAF acft...in this case, Yellow White and Black. Individual RAF aircraft did not have differently colored ID letters according to Squadron Flight or Wing, etc... as did the Luftwaffe aircraft for Gruppe Stab's and Staffels.

Without a manual, it is hard to determine what the Color Selections relate to...

I'd certainly like to see a similar Selection screen for Luftwaffe aircraft.