Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Splitter]

Blackdog,

There are problems with your comparisons to today, but not flaming.

Most of the soldiers fighting today in the Middle East are very well informed and very well educated compared to the men fighting in WWII. They are making informed decisions...and by in large they want to stay and finish the job.

Perhaps they have seen enough of the world to understand the dangers out there better than people sitting at home? A lot of the young men who come home find it very hard to connect with people their own age who did not go into the service.

You theorize that a higher incidence of PTSD and related disorders are somehow connected to morally "suspect" wars. I would theorize that the higher incidence of some of these disorders is from enemy tactics. In WWII, the enemy wore a uniform. In later conflicts, the enemy tried to blend in with the population and the soldiers were constantly "on guard".

Studies I read back in the day were pretty clear that every soldier is subject to some form of battle fatigue and every soldier will begin to suffer the effects if left in combat for two weeks. In many wars today, there is no real safe haven, the civilians are potential threats, and tours have been extended.

I can only speak for American soldiers and I know or have met many. They are probably the most adamant segment of our society when it comes to seeing the present day wars through to a successful conclusion.

They understand, probably better than most others, who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. And they say we need to fight. That should tell us something.

Like I said in other posts, separate the soldier from the leadership. You can say that the wars are morally suspect (I know you a bit from your postings and know that you still honor the solders), that's a comment on the leadership in various countries. Fine, that's your opinion and obviously not what we are discussing here.

But you cannot say that the soldiers are suffering from some sort of moral dilemma and that is somehow causing them problems. Far from it, they are motivated and committed to the cause.

Come to one of our wounded warrior shoots (you get the flight, I'll pick up the lodging ). Not only will you get your hands on some pretty cool hardware, but you will see some soldiers who want nothing more than to get back out there with their unit. They may be missing legs, arms, an eye, whatever....even after all of that they want to go back and fight. Yes, it is enough to bring a grown man to tears when you see it.

There is not much of a moral debate going on among the Armed Forces. We may be a bit divided at home, but the people out defending us are pretty united in their commitment.

Wars are terrible and some more than others. I think of the fighter pilots in WWII and can see why they were maybe a bit different than the common ground soldier. The pilots usually did have something of a safe haven at their base. They "usually" did not actually see the people they killed. There seemed to be a more "gentlemanly" aspect to the pilots, a mutual respect. In many cases at least.

Maybe that makes it easier to fly for both sides in a sim?

Then I think about the German pilots and what they went through. I am not minimizing any Allied service, but German pilots could not complete a tour and go home or be re-assigned. They flew until the war ended, they died, or they were wounded too badly to fly. There was no "end in sight" for the German pilots. That must have been very taxing indeed....a lot of them ran up against the odds at some point maybe hundreds of missions into their career. Staggering to think about.

Splitter

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Well as they say "History is written by the victors."

This is sometimes true, but not always. What is much more true is that history is written in the main by the survivors, and that is a big bias.

[Friendly_flyer]

Just to go back on topic for a moment:

I mainly fly RAF, because I've always been partial to the machines (particularly the Hurri) and partially because of growing up in Norway in the 70ies (the RNAF has strong ties to the RAF from the war, the squadrons are even numbered as part of the RAF system). Having said that, I fly whatever side or whatever plane tickles my fancy: German late war wonderplanes, Italian birds (the SM 79 is great!), Soviet ground hogs or any rickety double decker. Mostly i enjoy flying for whomever is the underdog. That is a rather typical human trait. I don't fly American planes much, mostly because the US were top dogs for most of the war, and because I don't like their planes much. Polished metal has never been my thing. The Martlet is a great little plane though.

[WTE_Galway]

Good point Igo

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

There is a saying: A good man in a bad place. I suspect there were many such men, and women in those days.

One thing I have always found heartening about the Japanese was the behavior of many civilians and enlisted men towards prisoners in the home islands. Despite the threat of being quite literally beaten to death if caught fraternising with the enemy, many risked their own saftey to show kindness to PoW's.

You also hear many stories of the Japanese Navy, who treated prisoners relatively well, being very unwilling to hand captured allied sailors over to the army and the work camps and apologizing to the prisoners they were handing over.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Anthony Beevor wrote something of that in his book on Stalingrad. The Germans physical courage wasn't in doubt, but their moral courage was nowhere. I always respected the Italian troops who recognised things for what they were and surrendered. If only 5 million Germans were as brave as that.

i recall an episode in his stalingrad book about that... the italian commander surrendered in the face of an overwhelming soviet assualt supported with tanks. the italians had no anti-tank weapons, and surrendered without firing a shot. when asked why, the reply was "we thought it would be bad idea".

and recently, there was something i saw on telly, something in the region of 250,000 or somthing (could be wildly inaccurate, can't recall) were sent to the eastern front, and only 10,000 (or something as hugely disparate) returned.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm a hypocrite.
I will not fly a Nazi German plane in a mission offline or online, unless testing a new map or the red team is full, and largely for moral reasons.
On the other hand I will fly japanese planes, because american fighters are hopelessly unmanoeverable and for straight lines only. Like American motorbikes.
I do like to fly american bombers though.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

Sorry if this sounds like rubbish, but I've had a couple.

PS. Never post when drunk

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

I'm a hypocrite.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.

Indeed:

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."


"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."


However that is not quite the same as the Waffen SS which required "Aryan ancestry and National-Socialist beliefs ":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/waffen-ss.html

[Friendly_flyer]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

I don't think you are a hypocrite. You use your freedom to elect not to fly under the swastika banner, that right was after all an important part of what the war was about.

Like you, I fly for my own enjoyment. I do not feel any obligation to "honour all veterans on all sides" by flying under their banners. As long as you recognice your feelings for just that, and not mistake them for some absolute moral imperative, you are not a hypocrite in my book.

[MrBaato]

I will fly anything that isnt american

or I use a non-american skin on it...

Perhaps thats because I played Aces High II (which has all american planes flyable and a few foreign ones because they need non-american planes to shoot down xD)
and the holiwood movies

I also dont like their lack of chivalry and i cant stand their skins with the redneck names written on them

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by MrBaato

I also dont like their lack of chivalry and i cant stand their skins with the redneck names written on them

Are you talking about the actual WWII pilots or the people who play Aces High II?

Splitter