water cannon

[Timberwolf]

"However, don't criticise another country's peoples and laws just because you do not agree with them. If you're not a citizen then it's really none of your business. That goes for the whole guns are great/bad argument."

I live in Canada, Where yes you can own a gun. However I live in a major city for 40 years and still haven't found a "local gunshop" I'm thinking of the Amendment in the States "Right to baer arms" was in a time when you had cvil wars, Indians losing there lands, Bears and unlawful towns in some parts of the country. And really Each to his/Her own. But When you see or hear of a mass murder with M-16's, or find out Are/your Troops were killed by M-16's that were given to Afghanistan to help fight the war against Russiain the 80's

Makes me skahe my head to think the gun that killed are fallen troops was made in the USA

If everyone owned a gun would it be right? Do you know
The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries, though they also have the highest rate of gun ownership and highest rate of officers

It ranks up there with 3rd world Countries

A idea would be to stop making guns! The more there are the eazier it is to get one ( Hunters get 1 rifle ) Gun hobbist ( find another hobby) or use rentals at a gun range. Automatic guns banned. FBI, SWAT, Homeland, Army etc only anyone else min 10 years

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Are we arguing about the way we're arguing here? You know exactly what I meant when I said handgun, you're just deflecting the argument again.

now, I'm only saying that if you really want to, you can still have a handgun, muzzle loader yes, but even a revolver muzzle loader..

No, I just don't vote, they're all the same. I just get on with my life. I can't think of anything that I've wanted to do in my entire life that the govenrment stopped me from doing. They are so far removed from rel life that it's poinltess bothering with them.

and you call yourself a responsible citizen?! You don't even bother to vote "cos they're all the same" and then you get mad if I call you a sheep?

People like me? WTF? Who do you think you are?

read above, people like you, yes, who blindly vouch for their own institutions and country and don't even make an effort to make his voice count cos they're lazy.

Jeez, we're onto drugs now are we? Why? What are you going on about?
G U N S. Remember?

it's a parallel: drugs serve no purpose according to a certain part of the society, but another part (who uses them) find them enjoyable. Still, some of them are tolerated.. nonsense..

Wher have I resorted to calling you ignorant, dickish, a sheep, questioned your intelligence? I haven't. I've stuck to my side of the argument, you meanwhile go from one random analogy to another. I'm not taking this personally AT ALL. You're the one getting personal. You're the one slagging off my country of birth, have I mentioned Italy? Not once.

there's no perfect country man, but there are countries where citizens are more engaged in what's going on, and those countries work better.
Don't take it so personally, especially cos you're not that bothered about your country, since you don't vote, you just get mad if someone talks bad about it, and behave in a racist way too, inviting foreigners to leave, instead of digging your head out of the sand and listen to what people from other cultures and backgrounds have to say.

Except me? I don't want handguns to be legal in the UK. Or Semi Automatics.

yes, fine, you still haven't given valid reasons why.

They put the price up.

yeah and you're happy with that..

No, forbiding potentially dangerous things would be stupid, I'm talking about lethal wepons, expilcitly - firearms - they are not the same thing - Another smokescreen.

lethal weapons? You said that a gun is not good or bad, so why forbidding something that is not good or bad? I'd monitor the gun accessibility better, not prohibit it altogether.

Stop telling me how I'm thinking, I am a grown up, I can make my own mind up about things. I'll say it again - I don't think a hobby is a good enough reason to lobby for lifting the current bans. Time may well change this opinion, If in the future there becomes a real need for gun ownership, you know, when the oil runs out, or food, and you really would need to protect yourself then, absolutley, get me a gun. But not now, I like having an unarmed (in the main) police force, they aren't as cocky. You arm the population and the poilce arm themselves too and so do more of the criminals. Less than 40 people were killed by guns in the UK last year, that's pretty good for a nation of drunken benifit claimers. I want it to be the hardest thing you can apply for a licence for. Truth is the Brits like a good old fashioned drunken punch up more than a pussies with guns shootout. (I don't mean people with guns are pussies, I mean a pussy with a gun, someone you know you'd beat to a pulp if he wasn't armed)

I'm not telling you how you think, you know how you do it and you're convinced of what you're saying, the facts on the other hand, say otherwise. I'm not here to change your mind or whatever, I honestly don't care, but if in a potential future there will be a need to gun ownership (apocalypse, change of rules, raise of crime), you'll be late, and probably dead too.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Hood

Yes we are safe, as safe as anyone can be.

then you must live in some remote part of the UK and you don't watch TV news. Seriously? That's pure denial.

Nope haven't criticised the American system - it's their system to do with as they will, so is neither good nor bad, just different. I disagree with it, but that's not criticism. I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that I'm implying the Swiss are crazy, so I won't even touch on that further. Crazy costs of living yes.

cos every man there is asked to defend his country, just like when you had the territorial Army here during the war. Maybe that's why you are against guns, you watched too many re-runs of Dad's Army..

Lots of people in the UK don't understand the monarchy either. I happen to be in favour for a number of reasons but that's a different subject.

it's off topic, but I'd be genuinely interested to know why, feel free to PM me about it.

What really gets me is that all the pro-gun crowd seem to be equating gun = ability to defend. A gun is needed because the other guy has one. In the UK the vast majority don't have guns to use, so we don't need one. I can defend myself if I have to, but that doesn't help me defend my country. What kind of skewed thinking is that.

that's a somehow romantic view, guns can be used to defend yourself when you'd be easily overcome by someone stronger or in greater numbers than you. It's a battle leveller: if everyone has the same offensive potential, everyone stays calm. It's what our governments do with nuclear weapons: they don't use 'em, but they're there, just in case..

As for my provocative nature, what a sweeping assumption to make based on my caustic response to a provocative comment. I wonder what the other examples are?

yeah, but that was a bit over the line here.. as you know banjos are Luthier's fav instrument

[Hood]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

then you must live in some remote part of the UK and you don't watch TV news. Seriously? That's pure denial.


cos every man there is asked to defend his country, just like when you had the territorial Army here during the war. Maybe that's why you are against guns, you watched too many re-runs of Dad's Army..

it's off topic, but I'd be genuinely interested to know why, feel free to PM me about it.

that's a somehow romantic view, guns can be used to defend yourself when you'd be easily overcome by someone stronger or in greater numbers than you. It's a battle leveller: if everyone has the same offensive potential, everyone stays calm. It's what our governments do with nuclear weapons: they don't use 'em, but they're there, just in case..



yeah, but that was a bit over the line here.. as you know banjos are Luthier's fav instrument

I live near Manchester. Pick any country and if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time then you're in trouble. TV news rarely shows good news, and if you read the Daily Mail then the whole country is going to the dogs. I don't equate bad news on the TV with living in the UK in general.

As for defending my country, if I was conscripted then I'd pick up a gun. Not because it's what I want but because it's what my country expects of me. I don't need a gun to hand to do it - that's what the armed forces are for.

The monarchy - I like it because:

1. It's a constant in times of great change. The current queen has been a very worthwhile moral compass and a great example of public service - I really believe that she sees her role as serving the people of her country and the Commonwealth.

2. The Crown Estates (ie the properties owned by the monarchy) give about £230 million to the revenue of which about £8m is returned to the Queen - good profit for the country I'd say.

3. The royal family are great ambassadors for the country, and they do it for duty not money (google Civil List to see hwo the monarchy is funded - might clear up some misconceptions commony held).

4. For me it makes the UK different from most other nations. Not better or worse, just different. Over time I think the monarchy will end up more like that of the Netherlands.

5. I just like it - no rationale logical reason.

6. They're probably ever so slightly traditional British eccentrics (i.e. bonkers but nice with it).

There are a whole host of arguments against them, normally focused on their cost to the UK economy. I always wonder if it'll ever be possible to calculate their actual worth.

And I forgot that Luthier likes the banjo. Just so long as he doesn't start saying "Squeal...."

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

your statement clearly shows you're not reading what I write, or that my English is not good enough, or that you don't understand your own language. Read my posts again and please give me a valid reason why people licensed from the institution couldn't own semiauto full bore firearms and pistols.


no, my definition of agree is respecting the fact that some people can own certain firearms and that you don't have to fear from them, since they won't jump on you and shoot your head off. It sounds like you think that every gun owner is a nutter!!


Ok, according to the theory of both of you, if I seek something cos I like it I should be kept away from it?!

You two sound like the envious losers who slag people who own fast cars just because they can't afford it..

Talking of which, here's another comparison: say that I like fast cars, which have a serious potential of infringing the law because of their speed, and that we could well do without, since you can have a normal car for your commuting. Shall we forbid fast cars just cos they serve no purpose? Or shall we be free to own something that yes, potentially it can be used to infringe the law and even kill someone, but still it's our own personal free choice to spend our own money?

If tight gun legislation prevents ONE person being killed by someone who had previously passed whatever tests were in place, and who legally owned their firearms... It's done it's job. End of, simple as that. It's not a failing of language that prevents you understanding this stance, which is shared by my countrymen in this thread, it's a failing of logic.

That you continue to debate this, and draw in irrelevant examples such as jealousy (!) of car owners just goes to further to illustrate the fatal flaw. Guns, in the wrong hands, kill people. The wrong hands may have been the right hands yesterday. Doing everythjng within the UK governments power to prevent that is, in the eyes of the majority of citizens of the UK, a Good Thing.

Originally Posted by brando

" A bit of military or para-military discipline never did any harm to anyone."

Leaving aside the IRA. UDA. PIRA. UVF. RIRA. RHD. and various other para-military groups who did an awful lot of harm to the peaceful citizens of their country?

Or maybe consider the cross-border flow of drugs for guns across the Rio Grande?

But it's really no use talking to a person whose gun fetish outweighs his compassion....

+1
Indeed.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm still talking facts here man, get your facts right then tell me about yours..

You keep on ignoring a really huge one, so why should we?

Originally Posted by Hood

That goes both ways doesn't it.

Quite.

Originally Posted by Hood

You take responsibility? I presume you have a cape to twirl whilst you dish out punishment in your vigilante alter ego?

I presume that you know that the "right to bear arms" has different interpretations, and that it was formulated in the late 18th century? By people who had to support the idea of armed insurrection as that is what they had just done?

I don't have to defend my nation as my government does that on my behalf, and I trust them to do so. Owning a gun wouldn't help me defuse an IED in Afghanistan, or stop a terrorist attack. How do you defend your nation by owning a gun? Owning a gun doesn't empower you to do anything at all; that's what the rule of law does.

It really doesn't bother me that the USA allows the right to bear arms. It's your country and your politicians and if you vote for them and they let you have what you want then that's fine. If you disagree with your government by all means form a militia and march on Washington. It'll make great TV whilst it lasts.

However, don't criticise another country's peoples and laws just because you do not agree with them. If you're not a citizen then it's really none of your business. That goes for the whole guns are great/bad argument.

Giggle away.

Cracking post. Although the image of Stern as big daddy (Kick-Ass) is bkth amusing and disturbing...

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

then you must live in some remote part of the UK and you don't watch TV news. Seriously? That's pure denial.


cos every man there is asked to defend his country, just like when you had the territorial Army here during the war. Maybe that's why you are against guns, you watched too many re-runs of Dad's Army..

it's off topic, but I'd be genuinely interested to know why, feel free to PM me about it.

that's a somehow romantic view, guns can be used to defend yourself when you'd be easily overcome by someone stronger or in greater numbers than you. It's a battle leveller: if everyone has the same offensive potential, everyone stays calm. It's what our governments do with nuclear weapons: they don't use 'em, but they're there, just in case..



yeah, but that was a bit over the line here.. as you know banjos are Luthier's fav instrument

I find the depths of your delusion disturbing.

News reports make it seem every street has it's own paedo, crack dealer, terrorist cell and serial killer. "if you don't read the newspapers you're uninformed, if you do read them you're misinformed".

[Hunden]

Originally Posted by Hood

Put your banjo down before reading then.

How did you know I was playing my banjo?

[Hood]

Originally Posted by Hunden

How did you know I was playing my banjo?

Educated guess

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

If tight gun legislation prevents ONE person being killed by someone who had previously passed whatever tests were in place, and who legally owned their firearms... It's done it's job. End of, simple as that. It's not a failing of language that prevents you understanding this stance, which is shared by my countrymen in this thread, it's a failing of logic.

That you continue to debate this, and draw in irrelevant examples such as jealousy (!) of car owners just goes to further to illustrate the fatal flaw. Guns, in the wrong hands, kill people. The wrong hands may have been the right hands yesterday. Doing everythjng within the UK governments power to prevent that is, in the eyes of the majority of citizens of the UK, a Good Thing.

+1
Indeed.

You keep on ignoring a really huge one, so why should we?

Quite.

Cracking post. Although the image of Stern as big daddy (Kick-Ass) is bkth amusing and disturbing...


I find the depths of your delusion disturbing.

News reports make it seem every street has it's own paedo, crack dealer, terrorist cell and serial killer. "if you don't read the newspapers you're uninformed, if you do read them you're misinformed".

You know what, I'm not even making an effort to answer your posts anymore, you came out for what you are: a person that is lazy, uninformed and cares about his country only when others (read "foreigners") question its rules, to which you can only obey like a sheep, not only cos you're uninformed, but cos you don't even use your own right to defend your opinion, the vote. You're the kind of person that is ruining this country, carry on with your obtuse and condescending behaviour, I'm sure it'll get you far..

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Hood

I live near Manchester. Pick any country and if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time then you're in trouble. TV news rarely shows good news, and if you read the Daily Mail then the whole country is going to the dogs. I don't equate bad news on the TV with living in the UK in general.

yeeeeeah, any other commonplaces to put down? The truth is that you can get a lot more news and information nowadays than 20 years ago, it's all about knowing where to get it. I think the Daily Mail is on par with Nuts Magazine et similar, you can get all the information you need from online news independent broadcasts etc.. I can provide you with link, but maybe you're too busy reading the Sun..

As for defending my country, if I was conscripted then I'd pick up a gun. Not because it's what I want but because it's what my country expects of me. I don't need a gun to hand to do it - that's what the armed forces are for.

yep, four days of burning and looting in the major UK cities were the perfect example of how ready our armed forces are.

The monarchy - I like it because:

1. It's a constant in times of great change. The current queen has been a very worthwhile moral compass and a great example of public service - I really believe that she sees her role as serving the people of her country and the Commonwealth.

this I can understand.

2. The Crown Estates (ie the properties owned by the monarchy) give about £230 million to the revenue of which about £8m is returned to the Queen - good profit for the country I'd say.

this I don't understand. It's like they're getting a share of a profit without doing anything, a bit mafia like

3. The royal family are great ambassadors for the country, and they do it for duty not money (google Civil List to see hwo the monarchy is funded - might clear up some misconceptions commony held).

mmmmhyeah, have to say that Prince Philip offers some comedy gems every now and then

4. For me it makes the UK different from most other nations. Not better or worse, just different. Over time I think the monarchy will end up more like that of the Netherlands.

That goes without saying. You love being different.

5. I just like it - no rationale logical reason.

what is it that you like exactly? To be a commoner or the idea that there are people with no special skills, but that for chance/land owning/convenient wedding are entitled to a title of nobility and are somehow "better" than the average person?

6. They're probably ever so slightly traditional British eccentrics (i.e. bonkers but nice with it).

lol true

There are a whole host of arguments against them, normally focused on their cost to the UK economy. I always wonder if it'll ever be possible to calculate their actual worth.

Well other countries have other people that cover the same roles at the fraction of the salary, so their worth is kinda irrelevant.

The way I see it is that's just a neat, overpriced, anachronistic tradition to cling onto, but hey, it's part of your heritage, so why not? Maybe they could still do what they do cutting a bit on the unnecessary expenses, that might really show how they are "the people's royal family". But hey, again, just my opinion. I ask cos most people react really weird and tend to evade the question when I ask them what they think of the royal family.

And I forgot that Luthier likes the banjo. Just so long as he doesn't start saying "Squeal...."

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know what, I'm not even making an effort to answer your posts anymore, you came out for what you are: a person that is lazy, uninformed and cares about his country only when others (read "foreigners") question its rules, to which you can only obey like a sheep, not only cos you're uninformed, but cos you don't even use your own right to defend your opinion, the vote. You're the kind of person that is ruining this country, carry on with your obtuse and condescending behaviour, I'm sure it'll get you far..

utter tosh.

again you ignore the salient point - the majority of UK citizens are happy with the restricted ownership of guns. most, if not all, would also support even harsher sentencing for illegal ownership of guns.

this is the law of the land.

it is democratically supported.

i vote in national and local elections.

and i am far from uninformed.

sending armed troops onto the street to deal with rioters is the reserve of syria. the riots happened for very deeply ingrained issues, and quickly degenerated into simply looting... which is again a result of deeply ingrained issues. as soon as a sufficient police response was established the problem was extinguished, and with a minimal loss of life.

with less restricted gun ownership (and don't ignore that a lot of those currently on remand for their part in the riots were first offenders with no psychiatric issues which would preclude gun ownership), or a heavily armed response... it would've been a bloodbath.

when people cite the laws of other countries and wish to implement them in this country, i will defend my country and the laws i live under where i agree with them - and if i do not i will still respect the democratic process that has led to their implementation. i will not bitch and moan that the laws should be changed simply because it inconveniences me. and i will do this regardless of who i am arguing with.