water cannon

[Sternjaeger II]

+1 to Nearmiss, and your example can be scaled to nations and their races for nuclear armaments: yes, it's horrible to think that on this very British soil there are 226 nuclear warheads, half of which would be enough to obliterate human kind for good, but it's "peace through an equal threat" or "superior firepower" the only winning formula with human kind unfortunately.

It's the presumption to think we live in a world where a war couldn't happen again that leaves me speechless. The United Kingdom waged wars for centuries, yet Britons now think it can't happen again..

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

+1 to Nearmiss, and your example can be scaled to nations and their races for nuclear armaments: yes, it's horrible to think that on this very British soil there are 226 nuclear warheads, half of which would be enough to obliterate human kind for good, but it's "peace through an equal threat" or "superior firepower" the only winning formula with human kind unfortunately.

It's the presumption to think we live in a world where a war couldn't happen again that leaves me speechless. The United Kingdom waged wars for centuries, yet Britons now think it can't happen again..

You better believe it. There are people that hate, and have their own reasons for it. The radicals, the religious zealots, we've had these people since forever and they are inevitably spawned in every generation. They do get empowered, which we see from factions that perform and promote genocide.

I can assure you, there are people that have their own reasons for hatred. They create reasons to hate, and they have no basis, except their own borderline insanity.

The citizens of every country need to bear arms, it is a deterrent of enormous proportions to keep despots from taking over. The despots and crooks want to take your stuff, but they won't go to the trouble to take it when you are willing to defend it.

A side note -- you can count on it. There is a Hitler clone alive today, ready to spew the poison and hatred to destroy millions. There are many Hitlers in the world today, that would love to do their dirt. There are people so full of hatred it is beyond the sensibilities of reasonable men and women. Civilized society has to to keep those evil people in check, and immasculated. It is critical to keep them from ever achieving power, or everyone will pay consequences, possibly of enormous proportions.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yeah, you kinda contradicted yourself there.. they're even an Olympic discipline, which is vaguely inspired to their original purpose, but then so is the use of bows, isn't it?

No contradiction I'm afraid. The exceptions that prove the rule, perhaps.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The citizens of every country need to bear arms, it is a deterrent of enormous proportions to keep despots from taking over. The despots and crooks want to take your stuff, but they won't go to the trouble to take it when you are willing to defend it.

This is laughable. In the First World it isn't going to happen, and in the Third World having a gun doesn't help because the despots have more, bigger guns or they're supported by First World countries.

You're also advocating intervention into other countries' domestic affairs by arming their citizens and formenting civil war? That gives the USA a bad name that it doesn't deserve.

I can't be bothered to reply about the crooks bit - look up your own stats.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

whereas killing someone in a videogame when you're 12 is ok, right? I'm afraid that sometimes we make the mistake to think that all families are normal, with healthy values and sound principles. Unfortunately it's not the case, and all the youth senseless violence that we have now is also fruit of this de-sensibilisation to it. Remember that kid that killed his ex girlfriend last year with a stone? Comparing how hard it is to kill someone in real life as opposed to a videogame or a movie with his friend, who thought he was joking?

Awful, but nothing to do with gun laws. (And I am still shocked when I hear someone obviously under age playing Call of Duty online, as a parent I wouldn't allow my kids to play an 18 rated game) I agree about violence in entertainment desensitising people to it.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

We already talked about this Winnie, I'm ok cos I can still use the firearms I want when I want to, and again mine was a mere consideration of the ridiculous state of the law here in terms of gun ownership, that's all. I respect your lack of interest on the subject, but what I don't tolerate is generalisation, like your last sentence, which is obviously driven by ignorance on the subject (which again it kinda surprises me, since you admitted yourself that you have books on firearms).

Ignorance of what? And can you at least extend me the common courtesy of spelling my name right..? I'm ignorant...? ok. You're the one telling me that my opinion is 'obviously driven by ignorance.' No it's not. A gun is an inannimate object designed to fire projectiles at whatever you point it at. Not a Hunter, or a collecter or a criminal or soldier. It's a machine for shooting that does not care what it is shot at or why.

If you want to explain why you find the current laws ridiculous then maybe I'd understand more where you're coming from, but your argument isn't about guns, it's about violence in society and government and human rights. As you say, you're ok because you can still use the firearms you want to when you want to, so, what's the problem?

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Hood

This is laughable. In the First World it isn't going to happen, and in the Third World having a gun doesn't help because the despots have more, bigger guns or they're supported by First World countries.

I can't be bothered to reply about the crooks bit - look up your own stats.

Big guns can be offset by will and determination not to be a victim. Maybe not immediately, but who knows the threshold for the despots resolve. If you don't fight, you defnitely lose.

Maybe a hand gun won't get the whole job done, but it can help when it comes to dealing out the misery.

[seaeye]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you lot founded an empire on guns and violence and now live in complete denial, puh-leeease!

You obviously have little idea how the empire was built, because it wasn't simply 'Guns and Violence'. The British Empire was a result of trade with other nations. Violence occured, but then it was hardly any more so than what was happening throughout the world at the time. The Empire actually brought peace to an otherwise contantly warring India, and developed and educated the lands that came under the British flag. If they didn't, no amount of guns and violence would have kept the system going for so long. It's really not how you think it was..

Read this for starters..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Brita...5848858&sr=8-1

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by seaeye

You obviously have little idea how the empire was built, because it wasn't simply 'Guns and Violence'. The British Empire was a result of trade with other nations. Violence occured, but then it was hardly any more so than what was happening throughout the world at the time. The Empire actually brought peace to an otherwise contantly warring India, and developed and educated the lands that came under the British flag. If they didn't, no amount of guns and violence would have kept the system going for so long. It's really not how you think it was..

Read this for starters..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Brita...5848858&sr=8-1

hahahahaha "Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World" seriously?!?! Another trumpet blowing self proclaimed historian that wrote a novel (which doesn't even come with references!!)..
Quoting one of the reviews:

1. The British Empire invented drug-running, in order to correct its balance of payments with China. Britain was importing vast quantities of Chinese tea, and the Chinese weren't choosing any British produce in return. So we conspired to get the Chinese hooked on opium, even though Chinese law stated the opium trade was illegal. The plan worked and we even used the Royal Navy to maintain it. That is plain British evil.

2. The British Empire invented the concentration camp, in the Boer War, where we interned innocent Afrikaans women and children. Blood on our hands again.

3. The British Empire invented the mass slave trade, or the Black Holocaust as it is otherwise known. Tens of millions died on British ships and in British plantations. We took it to diabolical levels, that far overshadowed the practices of the Romans, Ottomans, Arabs and a number of African states that were also involved. More blood on our hands.

4. The British Empire caused famines in Ireland and India, that killed millions of civilians, simply because we didn't take precautions for non-British races, precautions we did take in Britain.

5. The British Empire invented modern monopoly practices and asset-stripping: The Industrial Revolution took place in Britain shortly after Clive looted the Bengal Treasury (that became a record injection of revenue into the British economy) and established a monopoly for British produce in India. With the Portuguese, Dutch, French and all others shut out of the massive Indian market and the stupendous cash windfall there is no surprise Britain surged ahead. Imagine if just 1 European country had a monopoly on Indian trade today, its economy would boom.

6. The British Empire lied to and cheated the Jews and the Arabs during WW1, promising both groups what they wanted in the Middle East. After WW2, the British ran out of the Middle East, leaving us with the mess of the unending Arab-Israeli conflict and modern terrorism on the streets of London.

Have you actually ever been to the countries that you allegedly brought civilisation to? India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Rhodesia, Malawi, not to mention Latin America or the Pacific Islands/Australia...

It's unbelievable and somehow historically offensive that nowadays there's still people that praises the good done by the British Empire without considering all the bad that was done!

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Gun laws

The only gun laws you need is the right to bear arms.

The crooks leave you alone, because they don't know if you are carrying.

The crooks don't invade your home, because they don't know what you have to protect yourself.

Look at all the genocide, throughout the world. The one's with the guns are the troublemakers and murders, yet the people they are hurting don't have guns. You want to stop the murder and mayhem, arm the people that currently have no way to protect themselves.

Yes you would have civil wars, but the peaceseeking side would have the ability to defend themselves. As it is they are slaughtered mercilessly.

Look at Somalia and Kenya now, over a 1 million people (with no guns) have had to flee Somalia or die there. All these people have become a problem for the rest of the world. I don't feel uncharitable when I say this. I'm just saying, if those people had been armed the outcomes would be different. I think it would have been horrible, but I don't think there would have been as many killed and suffering.

It would be difficult to give them guns now, because all the able bodied men have already been killed for the most part. The refuges are the young, the weak, the old and infirm. These people have to turn to the world for compassion, and they have strong argument for compassion and aid.

When a despotic government or factions want to start trouble, just make sure the folks they despise or otherwise plan to destroy have guns to defend themselves. Outcomes would be different.

woah.

this isn't even being sarcastic is it?

just... woah.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

hahahahaha "Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World" seriously?!?! Another trumpet blowing self proclaimed historian that wrote a novel (which doesn't even come with references!!)..
Quoting one of the reviews:

1. The British Empire invented drug-running, in order to correct its balance of payments with China. Britain was importing vast quantities of Chinese tea, and the Chinese weren't choosing any British produce in return. So we conspired to get the Chinese hooked on opium, even though Chinese law stated the opium trade was illegal. The plan worked and we even used the Royal Navy to maintain it. That is plain British evil.

2. The British Empire invented the concentration camp, in the Boer War, where we interned innocent Afrikaans women and children. Blood on our hands again.

3. The British Empire invented the mass slave trade, or the Black Holocaust as it is otherwise known. Tens of millions died on British ships and in British plantations. We took it to diabolical levels, that far overshadowed the practices of the Romans, Ottomans, Arabs and a number of African states that were also involved. More blood on our hands.

4. The British Empire caused famines in Ireland and India, that killed millions of civilians, simply because we didn't take precautions for non-British races, precautions we did take in Britain.

5. The British Empire invented modern monopoly practices and asset-stripping: The Industrial Revolution took place in Britain shortly after Clive looted the Bengal Treasury (that became a record injection of revenue into the British economy) and established a monopoly for British produce in India. With the Portuguese, Dutch, French and all others shut out of the massive Indian market and the stupendous cash windfall there is no surprise Britain surged ahead. Imagine if just 1 European country had a monopoly on Indian trade today, its economy would boom.

6. The British Empire lied to and cheated the Jews and the Arabs during WW1, promising both groups what they wanted in the Middle East. After WW2, the British ran out of the Middle East, leaving us with the mess of the unending Arab-Israeli conflict and modern terrorism on the streets of London.

Have you actually ever been to the countries that you allegedly brought civilisation to? India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Rhodesia, Malawi, not to mention Latin America or the Pacific Islands/Australia...

It's unbelievable and somehow historically offensive that nowadays there's still people that praises the good done by the British Empire without considering all the bad that was done!

i'm sorry, but what is the point of this post in relation to the topic? show me a nation, any nation, and i will show you the path it took to it's present state.

paved with the bones of those that fell in it's name or in defiance of it. i doubt that anyone that praises benefits, real or perceived, of those colonial days without also recognising the costs as well. if they do they are as myopic and misguided as someone who would compare real gun ownership with owning a computer game that has guns in it.

oh wait...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Awful, but nothing to do with gun laws. (And I am still shocked when I hear someone obviously under age playing Call of Duty online, as a parent I wouldn't allow my kids to play an 18 rated game) I agree about violence in entertainment desensitising people to it.

that's the whole point though, violence is perpetrated by individuals by different means: violent people will still be violent, with or without a firearm.

Ignorance of what? And can you at least extend me the common courtesy of spelling my name right..? I'm ignorant...? ok. You're the one telling me that my opinion is 'obviously driven by ignorance.' No it's not. A gun is an inannimate object designed to fire projectiles at whatever you point it at. Not a Hunter, or a collecter or a criminal or soldier. It's a machine for shooting that does not care what it is shot at or why.

Sorry about the misspelling, when I say ignorant I mean ignorance on gun culture, because, believe it or not, there is a massive culture behind it.

I don't care much for archery, but I'd never advocate for the banning of bows and arrows, although they can kill and injure too, and very well.

As you said, it's a machine, so I personally see nothing wrong in the use of it for recreational/collecting/educational purposes.

We love going to airshows, celebrating the courage and bravery of pilots, but what about all the brave soldiers that fought on the ground? Why can't a shooting event be an occasion to appreciate, get to know and learn more about firearms (which can be appreciated just as much as warbirds?)

If you want to explain why you find the current laws ridiculous then maybe I'd understand more where you're coming from, but your argument isn't about guns, it's about violence in society and government and human rights. As you say, you're ok because you can still use the firearms you want to when you want to, so, what's the problem?

Ok, let me explain: the current limitations imposed with the firearms regulations have no relevance in terms of safety against gun crime (as the Cumbria massacre demonstrated), simply because the range of firearms available is still very lethal and effective. Nowadays you can own one of these and be perfectly legal



This little bastard is lethal up to 300 yds, and accurate up to 140. Considering that most shooting massacres happen at a distance between 1 and 50 metres, we're still talking about an incredibly lethal thing, and in semiauto.

So it's not a matter of what firearms you have available to the public, but on which basis people are authorised to own firearms.

The statistics are quite clear: a society without firearms is not safer than one with firearms, think again of the example of Switzerland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland

so what is the point of prohibiting firearms if not to control the population better?