Native German person with engineering backround is needed for DCS Fw190

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

We do know "more" it has been stated that the level of CEM is less than what CoD gave us and for me that a show stopper.

Same here Krupi

[Feathered_IV]

I'm looking more for soul. Something clod missed entirely. I want that emotional response and the sense of "being there". Not just a sterile balancing act of mechanical input.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

I'm looking more for soul. Something clod missed entirely. I want that emotional response and the sense of "being there". Not just a sterile balancing act of mechanical input.

I don't think that soul is possible/compatible with arcade

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I don't think that soul is possible/compatible with arcade

I was just going to say something along those lines, strange how some people thing a more realistic experience involves less realism.

[Feathered_IV]

I never said that.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I was just going to say something along those lines, strange how some people thing a more realistic experience involves less realism.

I think what he was trying to say is not that realism should be sacrificed for feel but that one must make sure that one gves any simulation a heart as well as a head, you can make a sim that both gives you the accurate systems operation and gives you a sensation of flight, the thrill of a combat mission and the illusion that you really are a combat pilot.

I am a huge fan of the DCS series but I will admit that sometimes I do feel that it can be a bit sterile, interesting in terms of systems modeling but sterile because there is not a lot of feedback from the outside world around the plane, even bullets and missiles that strike the aircraft don't make much noise and instead just make a rather dull thud.

[bongodriver]

No, I think he was trying to say that he would like to have effects in line with his interpretation of realism or 'soul', so lots of Holywood whizzing and banging and other aspects designed to prevent the end user having to potentially suffer the more frequent and monotonous aspects of real world combat aviation. The sensation of flight let alone combat flight will, sad to say, never be recreated on a home computer setup, some of the perceived soul must be donated by the end user and not expected from the simulation, so it's still a little strange to hear expressions like 'the sensation of really being there' being validated by effects that were never really there.
I think CoD got it all spot on, not quite as complex as DCS, graphically stunning, closest to the sensation of real flight possible on a PC and just the right balance between realistic monotony and air combat excitement.
I do get it, I know that some people aren't interested in pure realism and don't have time in the day for stuff like that, I just never understood how quick missions don't seem to satisfy those quick instant action fixes, I thought that's why we have games like wings of prey, war thunder and Janes air combat thingy, it still baffles me why whenever a developer wants to go down a realism route, gangs of console style players want to steer it down the arcade path.....like theres still not enough arcade style games for them.
DCS is a superb product and is yet to realise it's full potential but I will bow to your experience as to what it really sounds/feels like when bullets and missiles hit your aircraft but for me a dull thud is good enough as long as you know what is happening, in my nearly 20 year flying career I have heard/felt what it's like to have various things hit the airframe (a tree, concrete fence post, metal spike, runway, chunks of ice) and most resulted in a reasonably dull thud by combination of the nature of aircraft structures and the way impact is reported through it and the sound attenuating effects of a headset/helmet, the lack of feedback from the real world is accurate and is one of the reasons why the sound radar effect many complain about is well founded.

[Feathered_IV]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I think what he was trying to say is not that realism should be sacrificed for feel but that one must make sure that one gves any simulation a heart as well as a head, you can make a sim that both gives you the accurate systems operation and gives you a sensation of flight, the thrill of a combat mission and the illusion that you really are a combat pilot.

Thanks startrekmike, that was indeed what I meant.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No, I think he was trying to say that he would like to have effects in line with his interpretation of realism or 'soul', so lots of Holywood whizzing and banging and other aspects designed to prevent the end user having to potentially suffer the more frequent and monotonous aspects of real world combat aviation. The sensation of flight let alone combat flight will, sad to say, never be recreated on a home computer setup, some of the perceived soul must be donated by the end user and not expected from the simulation, so it's still a little strange to hear expressions like 'the sensation of really being there' being validated by effects that were never really there.
I think CoD got it all spot on, not quite as complex as DCS, graphically stunning, closest to the sensation of real flight possible on a PC and just the right balance between realistic monotony and air combat excitement.
I do get it, I know that some people aren't interested in pure realism and don't have time in the day for stuff like that, I just never understood how quick missions don't seem to satisfy those quick instant action fixes, I thought that's why we have games like wings of prey, war thunder and Janes air combat thingy, it still baffles me why whenever a developer wants to go down a realism route, gangs of console style players want to steer it down the arcade path.....like theres still not enough arcade style games for them.
DCS is a superb product and is yet to realise it's full potential but I will bow to your experience as to what it really sounds/feels like when bullets and missiles hit your aircraft but for me a dull thud is good enough as long as you know what is happening, in my nearly 20 year flying career I have heard/felt what it's like to have various things hit the airframe (a tree, concrete fence post, metal spike, runway, chunks of ice) and most resulted in a reasonably dull thud by combination of the nature of aircraft structures and the way impact is reported through it and the sound attenuating effects of a headset/helmet, the lack of feedback from the real world is accurate and is one of the reasons why the sound radar effect many complain about is well founded.

You throw around a lot of words like "console", "arcade" and others like that in this post, I also don't have time for games that claim to be sims (it is why I don't play Birds of prey, War thunder and the Strike fighters series) but too often it is used to describe sims that only guilty of not being CloD, frankly, I don't get it.

We can go round and round as to what makes a sim but the fact is that Feathered was indeed talking about the "feel" of the sim, this is not something that needs to involve making the sim "arcade", it only means that you take some time to provide the player with more feedback, it is the difference between the scripted stalls in Lock-on vs the realistic stalls in the DCS series, the difference between the rather flat feeling of IL-2 1946 vs the rather vibrant feel of Cliffs of Dover.

Now, I know this will rankle some feathers here but I think Rise of flight is even a good example of giving the player the sensation of flight, I mean, you can hear the wind rushing past you, you can feel the aircraft bouncing about and you get a real feel for it as a result, now, while I love DCS A-10C to death, I do think that adding a few little things here and there that will give the player the "feel" of the aircraft in a more real way would only be a good thing.

Imagination is great, it is the reason any of these sims have appeal but in this day and age we have the means to provide a lot of kinesthetic feedback that is both realistic and thrilling to the player (sounds, feel of the controls, feeling of aircraft weight, etc).

In ragards to A-10C's sound, I doubt having a SA-8 smacking you in the tail would result in a dull thud in the way we hear it in DCS A-10C, now, I don't expect them to go out and record a SAM hitting a aircraft but it would be pretty neat if you heard a more dynamic sound, to be honest, that is really my only complaint and it is a very minor one considering the amount of realism they were able to achieve.

Lets not throw around hyperbole like "arcade", "console" and "casual" as a convenient way to insult someone (or someone's) without actually knowing if they truly are casual or arcade players, I mean, even CloD has it's realism settings so lets not pretend that this is the only sim in town and we here are the only ones who understand what a good flight sim is.

Every time I see another sim mentioned here (like DCS FW-190), it is only a matter of time before one of the regulars here posts a reply that takes a rather obvious jab at it just for not being CloD, to me, that is pretty sad as we all probably enjoy other sims (including the DCS series) when we are not flying around in Spit's and 109's.

Well, at least I hope folks play other sims in addition to this one.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I think what he was trying to say is not that realism should be sacrificed for feel but that one must make sure that one gves any simulation a heart as well as a head, you can make a sim that both gives you the accurate systems operation and gives you a sensation of flight, the thrill of a combat mission and the illusion that you really are a combat pilot.
.

Even if that criteria is met someday, I don't think it will become a high sales success. People are locked into 46 and are not big spenders it appears.