On the subject of Free-To-Play and MMOs

[AirHog71]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I'll tell you why not.

A "free to play" game means there's no barrier to registering a new account. That means if you get banned from the game for cheating, you just open a new account.

That means cheaters effectively cannot be banned since they can just register a new account and get right back in. IP bans don't work either if the person has a dynamic IP address (many residential ISPs do this).

So your only recourse is to hope the developers fix the bugs that allow cheats to happen.

Look at Maddox Games' track record: Do you think they will be releasing regular security updates? No.

A free2play game will be rife with cheating, with no way to stop it.

But that happens with a pay upfront games too. Look at Company of Heroes for example. The game can be picked up for $20, there's no subscription or no paid add-ons. People openly admit that if they get caught cheating, they simply buy a new licence.

It's naive to think people just buy 1 copy of game if their sole intention is to cheat.

Cheating is a fact of life for online gaming, there's nothing anyone can do about it. There are steps developers can take to kerb it but they'll never eliminate it no matter what model they follow.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AirHog71

But that happens with a pay upfront games too. Look at Company of Heroes for example. The game can be picked up for $20, there's no subscription or no paid add-ons. People openly admit that if they get caught cheating, they simply buy a new licence.

It's naive to think people just buy 1 copy of game if their sole intention is to cheat.

Cheating is a fact of life for online gaming, there's nothing anyone can do about it. There are steps developers can take to kerb it but they'll never eliminate it no matter what model they follow.

At least that $20 is a mitigating factor and is tied to a CD-key of some sort. Cheaters are lazy; otherwise they would just take time to get good at the game rather than resort to cheats.

Nobody has unlimited cash/patience to keep buying game licenses.

Either way, go start your own "please give us pay2win" thread if you're so gung-ho about it.

[AirHog71]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Either way, go start your own "please give us pay2win" thread if you're so gung-ho about it.

No disrespect Doggles, but last time I checked this forum is an open forum (with some rules which I don't think I have broken).

I'm just presenting an alternate point of view, I'm not asking you to agree with them.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by MikePXP

I had to quit iRacing for this reason. I paid over $300USD until I just couldn't keep up.

From what i can tell ROF is the same? correct me if I'm wrong about that but is the reason I won't touch that game either and I wont buy this one if I have to pay for every little piece.

If it has offline mode and its ONLY subscription I would be willing to pay but no way am I paying $1000s of dollars for one game like iRacing.

No RoF has the basic game free with the whole plane set updated as new planes are released. Problem is that only a couple of aircaft are flyable. IF you want to fly a particular plane, you pay a small once off fee and then that plane is available to you.

You might have to search to find a server that has your flyable aircraft on it.

There is no monthly fees for on line gaming and offline campaigns and quick missions.

Although I haven't flown in ROF for a long time I've "collected" a small stable of British planes. One day I might get aroound to using them.

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

At least that $20 is a mitigating factor and is tied to a CD-key of some sort. Cheaters are lazy; otherwise they would just take time to get good at the game rather than resort to cheats.

Nobody has unlimited cash/patience to keep buying game licenses.

Either way, go start your own "please give us pay2win" thread if you're so gung-ho about it.

Hah, a free to play/microtransaction model is the best you could hope for in an anti-cheat system! A constant flow of income from microtransactions keeps game company staff on the job of providing updates and gives incentive for the company to keep an eye out for cheaters, plugging holes where needed in regards to exploits/cheats. The company simply has to, it's their money farm now, if they don't tend to their crops, the money stops growing.

Free to play and *regularly* supported games are today's best anti-cheat system...WAAAY better than VAC, Punkbuster, etc. If a cheat happens, it's usually fixed and prevented after it's realized, a la World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, War Thunder. Unlike games like ours truly, CloD, where it's released into the wild with a snowball's chance in Hell to receive protection from cheating; It's released, no longer in developers hands with the leverage they need, or the ability to change a core mechanic to fix said cheats. Battlefield 3, a cheater's paradise -- the cheaters are rampant with no repercussions, no support from the developers...Call of Duty, etc. All games made for quick turnaround and no support.

The $60 games of today are going the way of the dodo. They're not made for longevity or continued support, but are designed for constant sequels 1-2 years later...the turnaround is horrendous.

And Doggles, your argument about not playing a game you're paying for because you're out doing other stuff is moot. If you're out doing other stuff, then don't buy the game, or cancel your subscription for that month. Furthermore, how can you stick to that sentiment and say you go skiing? I'm sure those skis, poles, goggles, boots, bindings, pants, jacket, and cute beanie with the puffball on top cost you at LEAST $500 altogether for the cheapie-cheap-cheapest stuff...yet you only use that when it snows...on a day off. So does that mean you're cool with paying for it when there's no snow on the ground? Why buy ski equipment at all then? Why doesn't that bother you?

If there's a subscription model in place in the sequel, it would be foolish to not follow suit of almost every other F2P model and charge more than $15 USD as other MMOs do. That's pennies an hour per month from your pocket even if you play just on the weekends. Company's recognize no one likes pay-to-win, if 1C were smart, the paid items in-game will be attainable by all, but attainable quicker by the buyers. That's easy to live with.

No one is going to give you a game for free. No one is going to develop a game without securing their interests in being a successful company.

Regarding your first post about not buying their product if "this" or "that", Doggles...I'll see you in the skies of that sequel on day one. Guaranteed.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Hah, a free to play/microtransaction model is the best you could hope for in an anti-cheat system! A constant flow of income from microtransactions keeps game company staff on the job of providing updates and gives incentive for the company to keep an eye out for cheaters, plugging holes where needed in regards to exploits/cheats. The company simply has to, it's their money farm now, if they don't tend to their crops, the money stops growing.

No it doesn't. It provides incentives to keep producing skins that they charge $5 for.

Free to play and *regularly* supported games are today's best anti-cheat system...WAAAY better than VAC, Punkbuster, etc. If a cheat happens, it's usually fixed and prevented after it's realized, a la World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, War Thunder. Unlike games like ours truly, CloD, where it's released into the wild with a snowball's chance in Hell to receive protection from cheating; It's released, no longer in developers hands with the leverage they need, or the ability to change a core mechanic to fix said cheats. Battlefield 3, a cheater's paradise -- the cheaters are rampant with no repercussions, no support from the developers...Call of Duty, etc. All games made for quick turnaround and no support.

All your examples miss the point entirely. What a surprise.

The $60 games of today are going the way of the dodo. They're not made for longevity or continued support, but are designed for constant sequels 1-2 years later...the turnaround is horrendous.

Basing your decision on the latest COD release doesn't make it valid. Are you an industry insider/expert? No? Then you don't know if those games are going the way of the dodo or not.

And Doggles, your argument about not playing a game you're paying for because you're out doing other stuff is moot. If you're out doing other stuff, then don't buy the game, or cancel your subscription for that month. Furthermore, how can you stick to that sentiment and say you go skiing? I'm sure those skis, poles, goggles, boots, bindings, pants, jacket, and cute beanie with the puffball on top cost you at LEAST $500 altogether for the cheapie-cheap-cheapest stuff...yet you only use that when it snows...on a day off. So does that mean you're cool with paying for it when there's no snow on the ground? Why buy ski equipment at all then? Why doesn't that bother you?

Firstly, because you don't pay a monthly fee for ski equipment. Once you stop growing you can essentially buy one set of equipment that lasts you for life.

Not to mention I never have qualms about spending good money on physical activities because exercise is good for me. Sitting on my ass playing flight sims really isn't so I'm less eager to spend my hard-earned money.

Trying to play the "lol cognitive dissonance" argument won't work, son.

If there's a subscription model in place in the sequel, it would be foolish to not follow suit of almost every other F2P model and charge more than $15 USD as other MMOs do. That's pennies an hour per month from your pocket even if you play just on the weekends. Company's recognize no one likes pay-to-win, if 1C were smart, the paid items in-game will be attainable by all, but attainable quicker by the buyers. That's easy to live with.

That's your opinion, nothing more. Thankfully, your opinion carries zero weight with me.

No one is going to give you a game for free. No one is going to develop a game without securing their interests in being a successful company.

Please quote where I said I wanted the game for free. Oh wait, that's what you are arguing for when you advocate the F2P model. What does the F stand for in F2P I wonder?????

Regarding your first post about not buying their product if "this" or "that", Doggles...I'll see you in the skies of that sequel on day one. Guaranteed.

I like how you're so confident. It's cute. I'm not bluffing. If you're a huge fanboy that will shell out for the sequel regardless of quality, that's your choice. If they go subscription/f2p I'll be exercising my choice and will have to content myself with other titles.

Don't bother responding: I think you, abortedman, are one of the biggest idiots in this community so I won't be replying to anything you post in this thread from here on out.

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

No it doesn't. It provides incentives to keep producing skins that they charge $5 for.

Name a free to play MMO that's rife with cheats and hacks that hasn't been patched or addressed.

Compelling argument. I stopped reading there. Hah, I expected nothing more from you.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Firstly, because you don't pay a monthly fee for ski equipment. Once you stop growing you can essentially buy one set of equipment that lasts you for life.

Don't worry Doggles, those salopettes you bought in 1974 will come back into ski fashion one day

[LoBiSoMeM]

1C don't give **** about our opinion, this topic is a waste of our time, will be deleted like the other one...

They are "bussiness man"... They know what they are doing... hohoho...

[hiro]

Even paid subscriptions don't keep cheaters out.

Even an MMO like world of warcrack (warcraft) at its height of 11 million subscribers, 300+ servers, and $15 US a month could not keep the cheaters out.

The moderators (like dungeon masters or game masters) and their pals all cheated. They even had cheating guilds with programs to fix the game's rolls (it used a modified 20D / 20 sided dice system) or add bonus / mods to the rolls.

The game was hacked so bad, even though Blizzard had hired droves of analysts to check for cheaters.

I was once a hard core WOW player, I worked 8 hours and played 6-8 every day (yeah what a life, I know ), my guild had the PK (player killer) servers hacked, we had d/l bot / hack / editor programs, we even had a over lay system with ghosted characters and easy text for the n00bs to follow when dealing with the hour long boss battles where you had to move to X Y Z in a sequence with certain party members doing their specialties requiring exact timing.

But the always get 18-20 for the die rolls was the best one we had. It also helped that the game master was in and he'd tell us about the update or let our programmers in on the internal beta test server so they could grab the code.


The closest to cheat free was in the 1946 servers, where people really knew the planes and would let the server admin know.

Or the old counter strike / counter strike 2 servers where most of the clans all knew each other and realized someone was pulling no clip or insta headshot cheats.

A solid knit community working with devs / server admins who are willing to make an effort to stop cheaters is the way to go.

I remember in the better 1946 severs, even people with a 10 kph extra speed, using MW50 / WEP / GM 1 / Forsazh forever, or sporting non period / historical armament (like 8 30mm's) / unlimited ammo, were found out within a few games and kicked / banned the next day.





As for CaptainD's ideas, I agree with them. For the sequel / IL-2 series. If they come out with IL-2 series sequels, with pay per new game / theater and then roll out with a separate MMO alongside the IL-2 BOM, I wouldn't mind the MMO being free to play, and pay for extras etc.



I'm all about supporting the devs, yet to thrive relies on a tried and true concept.

1C's business model for this series is simple. Be the best, accurate as possible, good customer service + work with the community / cater to community needs/wants for the game, make a awesome working game, and put out content (like campaigns, online, planes etc), have reasonable pricing, . . . Great products always sell, and reasonable pricing, and dedication to clients and customers keep them coming back.