Let's get constructive?

[BaronBonBaron]

Originally Posted by Pudfark

Well stated and presented Ataros.
Can you translate that to Russian and post it
on the "Ru" forums?

+1
My thoughts exactly.

[SiThSpAwN]

Originally Posted by Ataros

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

2) According to theory of systems any system without feedback will die very soon. If Luthier does not get clear, strong and ruthless understanding about community priorities from the forums or via BlackSix, IL-2 project will be a dead system soon.

3 cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

Il2bugtracker set up by community is a great tool to check and fine-tune the priorities but it was not visited by Luthier for 2 months already (at least under his forum name to encourage reporters).

Trust is 99% lost as we can see from comments in the update thread. This will definitely lead to the sequel failure, especially if it is released in a new field of MMO(more new code and bugs).

Let's get constructive.
Can anything be done to get trust back and save the company?
1) Get priorities right. E.g. take top 30 most voted bugs/issues from the il2bugtracker.com and fix 1-2 of them every 2 weeks with beta patches. Yes, not be lazy to assemble patches every 2 weeks in spite of the fact it takes time of chief-developer. When 20 bugs out of 30 are fixed, add another 20 to the list and repeat.

2) Fix feedback channel. Kindly ask B6 to present 5 top forum trends (discussed issues) to Luthier on weekly basis and report results on the forums. Sometimes bosses in Russia do not like to hear bad news and are getting angry when subordinates disturb them with them. In this case it takes courage to meet a boss every week and say unpleasant things about wrong priorities, new bugs, ets. But someone has to start doing this to enable feedback channel. Without feedback the system is dead (see link to coop case above).

Please show some real understanding of the situation and practical steps forward. Anything less then that will not help any more. Too little, too late.

Can this be done? This is only BlackSix's and Luthier's responsibility to take this responsibility and do it whatever the cost is. I do not think I can help more with bugtracker, FMB popularisation or whatever. Nothing will help if a company is producing something customers do not want instead of delivering what is wanted most (and voted!).

If you have better constructive ideas please add. I hope B6 will send a link to the thread to Luthier and they both frankly share their ideas on how to get trust back too.

PS. Sorry that I am not around very often. Meanwhile started to learn RC flying in a sim )

Great post, hope it doesnt fall on deaf ears...

[MadTommy]

The only thing i see helping this community is for Luthier to man up and present us with information directly himself. Real meaningful info. Not this charade through Blacksix. i think we deserver that much at least. Too busy to post, working all hours without holidays etc etc is simply not believable any more. You can't work that hard for that long with so little progress.

Let us know what is really going on.. warts and all, that is the only thing that will restore any faith in this dev team.

[SG1_Lud]

Originally Posted by Ataros

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

2) According to theory of systems any system without feedback will die very soon. If Luthier does not get clear, strong and ruthless understanding about community priorities from the forums or via BlackSix, IL-2 project will be a dead system soon.

3 cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

Il2bugtracker set up by community is a great tool to check and fine-tune the priorities but it was not visited by Luthier for 2 months already (at least under his forum name to encourage reporters).

Trust is 99% lost as we can see from comments in the update thread. This will definitely lead to the sequel failure, especially if it is released in a new field of MMO(more new code and bugs).

Let's get constructive.
Can anything be done to get trust back and save the company?
1) Get priorities right. E.g. take top 30 most voted bugs/issues from the il2bugtracker.com and fix 1-2 of them every 2 weeks with beta patches. Yes, not be lazy to assemble patches every 2 weeks in spite of the fact it takes time of chief-developer. When 20 bugs out of 30 are fixed, add another 20 to the list and repeat.

2) Fix feedback channel. Kindly ask B6 to present 5 top forum trends (discussed issues) to Luthier on weekly basis and report results on the forums. Sometimes bosses in Russia do not like to hear bad news and are getting angry when subordinates disturb them with them. In this case it takes courage to meet a boss every week and say unpleasant things about wrong priorities, new bugs, ets. But someone has to start doing this to enable feedback channel. Without feedback the system is dead (see link to coop case above).

Please show some real understanding of the situation and practical steps forward. Anything less then that will not help any more. Too little, too late.

Can this be done? This is only BlackSix's and Luthier's responsibility to take this responsibility and do it whatever the cost is. I do not think I can help more with bugtracker, FMB popularisation or whatever. Nothing will help if a company is producing something customers do not want instead of delivering what is wanted most (and voted!).

If you have better constructive ideas please add. I hope B6 will send a link to the thread to Luthier and they both frankly share their ideas on how to get trust back too.

PS. Sorry that I am not around very often. Meanwhile started to learn RC flying in a sim )

Spot on. QFT & 100 % at your side Ataros. I won't add anything because your post is already perfect in my point of view.

@Mr Schevchenko, I always wish you all the luck, but this time , my wish is that you read Ataro's post and have the greatness of recognizing such a good diagnosis you've been gifted. It not only pinpoints the problems, but also gives you solutions.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by Ataros

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

Not that I disagree in principle ... but I disagree with the bug/feature selection. Because - looking at the current Top 30 at bugtracker - all are either minor features or aircraft systems issues or typical online issues. I haven't found a single gameplay or single player relevant issue there and two gameplay-relevant things in the Top 50. That's a predictable result - an online platform will always produce results heavily biased in favor of online issues, but totally ignoring the gameplay and offline part (which is by far the least developed ATM) is only going to enhance the problems and generate more bad blood.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Single player is going the way of the Dodo, havent you heard?

[csThor]

Nah ... that's what those simple-minded folks want to tell you. Don't believe every overrated hype.

[6BL Bird-Dog]

Originally Posted by Ataros

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

1) Making slow steps due to bad issues is not a problem. Loyal customers can wait for some time if they see progress in the right direction. Setting wrong priorities is a problem though. Management starts with setting priorities.

2) According to theory of systems any system without feedback will die very soon. If Luthier does not get clear, strong and ruthless understanding about community priorities from the forums or via BlackSix, IL-2 project will be a dead system soon.

3 cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

Il2bugtracker set up by community is a great tool to check and fine-tune the priorities but it was not visited by Luthier for 2 months already (at least under his forum name to encourage reporters).

Trust is 99% lost as we can see from comments in the update thread. This will definitely lead to the sequel failure, especially if it is released in a new field of MMO(more new code and bugs).

Let's get constructive.
Can anything be done to get trust back and save the company?
1) Get priorities right. E.g. take top 30 most voted bugs/issues from the il2bugtracker.com and fix 1-2 of them every 2 weeks with beta patches. Yes, not be lazy to assemble patches every 2 weeks in spite of the fact it takes time of chief-developer. When 20 bugs out of 30 are fixed, add another 20 to the list and repeat.

2) Fix feedback channel. Kindly ask B6 to present 5 top forum trends (discussed issues) to Luthier on weekly basis and report results on the forums. Sometimes bosses in Russia do not like to hear bad news and are getting angry when subordinates disturb them with them. In this case it takes courage to meet a boss every week and say unpleasant things about wrong priorities, new bugs, ets. But someone has to start doing this to enable feedback channel. Without feedback the system is dead (see link to coop case above).

Please show some real understanding of the situation and practical steps forward. Anything less then that will not help any more. Too little, too late.

Can this be done? This is only BlackSix's and Luthier's responsibility to take this responsibility and do it whatever the cost is. I do not think I can help more with bugtracker, FMB popularisation or whatever. Nothing will help if a company is producing something customers do not want instead of delivering what is wanted most (and voted!).

If you have better constructive ideas please add. I hope B6 will send a link to the thread to Luthier and they both frankly share their ideas on how to get trust back too.

PS. Sorry that I am not around very often. Meanwhile started to learn RC flying in a sim )

Top Post Atros 100% behind you on this. In addition a Campaign genorator for single and multi-play would also add to the game especialy for those who do not take part in multi-play ,iL2 has a very large following of single mission players who favour campaigns over other aspects of the game & a third party Campaign Genorator was used by many Squads to create Missions for on-line wars .I can only see these features pulling people back to the series and increasing sales.

[mazex]

Great post Ataros!

[Catseye]

Originally Posted by Ataros

After reading all negative emotions in the update thread 2 considerations came to my mind:

snip . . .

3 cases that clearly show that Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:
- coop case (luthier still thinks coops work in spite of bugtracker #1 issue vote / or he is not informed properly) http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...postcount=1910
- online crashes after October 2011 patch not set as #1 priority(with "we have not experienced crashes for months now in internal testing" in spring 2012)
- online sound lost for 3-4 months after May or June 2011 patch and not set as #1 priority.

A very well thought out post.
I support the majority of what you have stated except item #3. While I understand your statements of procedure to support your claim of "Luthier either does not get feedback from community or sets priorities wrong:" . . . there is no empirical data that shows that Luthier does not receive the information - ie., he may receive it from alternate sources.

The priorities listed via the bug report are not IMHO, all the issues that are on the table to be weighed to create a priority list. For example, how can bugs be resolved if they have not yet gotten the engine to work optimally?

My position is: that this is a priority that would circumvent any other implied priorities. All other priorities are placed in drawer B while items in drawer A are being resolved.

Other than that I think that your post has much merit.

I would go further (as a prior IT person and major project leader) and state that: It is not whether issues are being corrected (because we know that they are), but rather - managing customer expectations and utilizing appopriate methods of communicating. When dates are specified, expectations are raised and those dates are expected to be met. Sometimes issues arise wherein those dates are impacted and they slip. BUT . . . . . this cannot become the norm. It is the management of expectations through communication that is extremely important in business to realize business goals.

Cheers.