Flight Modeling vs. Flight Handling.

[JG52Uther]

Well since I got my CH yoke, the Ju88 and especially the Heinkel feel totally different, much heavier and more 'real'. For me the difference between flying a 'heavy' with a light,quick moving Fighterstick and the slower moving, more physical actions of the yoke has made a surprising difference.
So, how much are our peripherals playing a part in the equation.

[JG52Krupi]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

Well since I got my CH yoke, the Ju88 and especially the Heinkel feel totally different, much heavier and more 'real'. For me the difference between flying a 'heavy' with a light,quick moving Fighterstick and the slower moving, more physical actions of the yoke has made a surprising difference.
So, how much are our peripherals playing a part in the equation.

Exactly if you include these handling models you have to add pilot exhaustion, from what i have read you had to be quite strong to pull off tight turns in a 109...

This is why I stay far far away from this topic there are just far too many variables to deal with

Such as aircraft from one production facility being deemed poorer that others etc... HUGE can of worms.

[louisv]

For what it's worth, a long time ago I was taking flying lessons on Piper Cherokees. There were half a dozen of those and I flew all of them.

While the big numbers are very certainly similar, the feel was different. They each had their own personalities: sitting higher or lower, tightness in the controls, etc...

So there is indeed a lot of subjective variables here...

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

No offense taken. You're somewhat correct, I've only been out on a track twice ever.

Similar performance, or identical performance? First of all that's different terminology than you were using before and secondly I'd agree that two similar vehicles can behave differently.

But two identical vehicles cannot behave differently. If they behaved differently then they are either not identical or are not receiving the same inputs.

I'm sure that driving sim players are tweaking their steering response curves too.

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

I suspect it will take another 5 to 10 years of computer development to enable the kind of nuance I'm getting at here.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by louisv

For what it's worth, a long time ago I was taking flying lessons on Piper Cherokees. There were half a dozen of those and I flew all of them.

While the big numbers are very certainly similar, the feel was different. They each had their own personalities: sitting higher or lower, tightness in the controls, etc...

So there is indeed a lot of subjective variables here...

I flew a few different Pipers that were in the 140 stable during training time. I have to say that I did not notice a difference between them. I'm sure though that they existed, but I never noticed any...too young and nervous I guess

[mazex]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I think that technology-wise Xplane is probably the closest one can get to having a wind tunnel emulator running on a PC (as long as the individual flyable is also done to a high standard to take advantage of the sim's engine in full), but sadly it will be some time before we see such technology in combat sims: it's so taxing that with full multi-core support in Xplane 10, a current PC can not run more than 4-6 AI aircraft with the same FM accuracy at the same time without noticeable performance loss. In fact, there are people who take Xplane flyables, simplify their FMs and reissue them as AI-only aircraft to populate the game world.

P.S. Very interesting topic

I don't understand why X-Plane is so "hyped" - or have I missed to un-tick some default "arcade" setting?

Look at the clip below where I do my regular test of the FM in X-Plane (latest version 10). Some barrel rolls right after take off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciJCTBW7zGc&hd=1

I'm sorry for being a bit evil in my comments

[robtek]

Do this with a 88 in cod and you're a smokin crater.

[Les]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

I suspect it will take another 5 to 10 years of computer development to enable the kind of nuance I'm getting at here.

This can be experienced now in the more advanced car-racing sims. With all the aero, tyre, suspension, gearing and other parameters you can adjust (sometimes with the assistance of telemetry systems like those used in real-life), two drivers can get the same performance (with lap times identical down to a fraction of a second) out of two differently set up cars of exactly the same make and model. Swap those two drivers cars around and with practice they might be able to adjust to each others set ups and still achieve the same lap times, but not without a struggle.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by mazex

I don't understand why X-Plane is so "hyped" - or have I missed to un-tick some default "arcade" setting?

Look at the clip below where I do my regular test of the FM in X-Plane (latest version 10). Some barrel rolls right after take off.

I'm sorry for being a bit evil in my comments

The thing with civilian flight sims is that a lot depends on the actual flyable and how it's modelled. They are very modular in nature and not all flyable aircraft use all of the code.

The same holds true for FSX too, i've seen aircraft that make CoD's CEM seem like a stroll in the park and i've seen others where keeping within the engine operating limits is just done for immersion and there's no consequence if you go over them.

This is pretty much the case with Xplane too, the core sim engine can calculate a bunch of stuff, but does it only if the flyable you are using requests that information. For example, i've downloaded the Xplane 10 demo and while their stock aircraft handle in a believable fashion (eg, crosswinds on light GA aircraft will lift your wing and throw you off course, needing aileron into the wind to keep staight, etc), some havn't included cowl flap operation and the CEM is simplified.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Doggles, two different cars can have identical (as close as possible in the real world) measured performance, but can handle and feel very differently.

Maybe. But those cars will differ significantly in some quantifiable manner, which is all I'm saying. There's no magic.

It might not be the "headline" numbers like top speed or horsepower that are different, but some number, somewhere is causing the difference that the driver feels.

I agree with you that a lot of these numbers are probably not modelled in games these days, but I feel like that's a budgetary consideration, not a system-requirements consideration.