What do you search in a combat flight sim?

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

@pupo: the actual absence of fatigue permits pilots to sustain high G-forces for dozen of minutes (until they win/die)... it clearly affects realism IMO.

well, tis that fatigue its SOOOO ahrd to standerize. it would depend on everithing. On your training, your phisical ability, your height and weight, waht you ahd ate, how much time have you flown that day? that week?, are you passing throw some drama? i mean. its just impossible to have a realistic fatigue model.

still, in 1946 you have a ver simple faitgue model, if you hold a medium G turn ( something like 4g's i guess, for enought time, you will eventually black out.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by pupo162

well, tis that fatigue its SOOOO ahrd to standerize. it would depend on everithing. On your training, your phisical ability, your height and weight, waht you ahd ate, how much time have you flown that day? that week?, are you passing throw some drama? i mean. its just impossible to have a realistic fatigue model.

Not so impossible. There is an average for everything. And there is an average for pilot fatigue also. Even if you implement ecceptional pilot fatigue resistance, it would be better than nothing. Currently a player is able to input maximum G (to the point of blacking out) for extended period of time.

In vertical flight where high speed diving is the norm, blacking out is much easier and ofcourse much frequent. Since Russian planes
- cannot reach speeds above 650km/h
- are mostly crappy at vertical maneuvers
they stick to their best tactic which is low speed horizontal, high G turns.
High G turns require applying high stick pressure. You will not black out at low speed, pulling the stick to the maximum for say 4 minutes. What most red pilots do (be it British or Russian planes) - they continously turn in the same direction until the blue plane stalls out or falls out of the turn circle. That is completely unrealistic. Not all red featured planes had light stick pressure. Some (very much like the Bf109)did require exceptional strenght to get the maximum horizontal turn doable by the aircraft airframe. As a result, in certain planes, only the strongest (and with the most stamina!!!) pilots could not only pull maximum horizontal Gs, but very few of them were ever able to sustain this amount stick pressure.

So in summary, in blue planes you can use trim to pull out of a dive BUT still you black out.
Red planes however are always able to pull their max Gs while in horizontal for unlimited time with no danger of blacking out.

Hence red planes expoit absence of pilot fatigue heavily in their favor.

You can always make it the same as blackout. When you pull max G for say 2minutes, your max stick pressure lowers itself, resulting in virtual pilot being unable to pull max horizontal G. When player lowers the stick pressure, he ragains fatigue and ability to pull maxG (gradually for say 15 seconds).

It is easy, but would make red pilots cry I know.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by carguy_

Not so impossible. There is an average for everything. And there is an average for pilot fatigue also. Even if you implement ecceptional pilot fatigue resistance, it would be better than nothing. Currently a player is able to input maximum G (to the point of blacking out) for extended period of time.

In vertical flight where high speed diving is the norm, blacking out is much easier and ofcourse much frequent. Since Russian planes
- cannot reach speeds above 650km/h
- are mostly crappy at vertical maneuvers
they stick to their best tactic which is low speed horizontal, high G turns.
High G turns require applying high stick pressure. You will not black out at low speed, pulling the stick to the maximum for say 4 minutes. What most red pilots do (be it British or Russian planes) - they continously turn in the same direction until the blue plane stalls out or falls out of the turn circle. That is completely unrealistic. Not all red featured planes had light stick pressure. Some (very much like the Bf109)did require exceptional strenght to get the maximum horizontal turn doable by the aircraft airframe. As a result, in certain planes, only the strongest (and with the most stamina!!!) pilots could not only pull maximum horizontal Gs, but very few of them were ever able to sustain this amount stick pressure.

So in summary, in blue planes you can use trim to pull out of a dive BUT still you black out.
Red planes however are always able to pull their max Gs while in horizontal for unlimited time with no danger of blacking out.

Hence red planes expoit absence of pilot fatigue heavily in their favor.

You can always make it the same as blackout. When you pull max G for say 2minutes, your max stick pressure lowers itself, resulting in virtual pilot being unable to pull max horizontal G. When player lowers the stick pressure, he ragains fatigue and ability to pull maxG (gradually for say 15 seconds).

It is easy, but would make red pilots cry I know.

Exactly.

Anyway, as for the realistic bombing mod of IL2, a 60% accurate detail is better than a 20% accurate, isn't it?

In this case there is no fatigue at all and not only spit pilots but also high speed BnZers (probably in a lesser way) can fight in that way for dozens of minutes; I can tell you that during our 1v1 trainings sometimes the fight end because of fuel, and we are manoeuvring all the time... 30 minutes?

Use an average value and we are happy.

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Exactly.

Anyway, as for the realistic bombing mod of IL2, a 60% accurate detail is better than a 20% accurate, isn't it?

In this case there is no fatigue at all and not only spit pilots but also high speed BnZers (probably in a lesser way) can fight in that way for dozens of minutes; I can tell you that during our 1v1 trainings sometimes the fight end because of fuel, and we are manoeuvring all the time... 30 minutes?

Use an average value and we are happy.

ok, you are right. i was thinking of a mroe ocmplex fatigue thingy. remodellign the G tolerance taking in consideration nearby pass ( 2 mins or so ) G maneuvering its doable. as you said. ( tough being able to trim in black out is a bad bad bug)
~
regarding the 30 min fight. i remenber viewing in history channel a guy who dogfighted 2 zeros during 20 or 30 min. yeah, its dogfights, but yeah.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Interesting.

[robtek]

I have to agree, simulating fatigue and stamina (isn't that the same?) is a very important step towards a complete cfs!

The pilots with a easy hand on the controls, trying to keep their plane in the optimal attitude at all times, finally would get the advantage they had in RL over the ham fisted ones.

If you dont trim your plane correct it should lower your stamina.

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by robtek

I have to agree, simulating fatigue and stamina (isn't that the same?) is a very important step towards a complete cfs!

The pilots with a easy hand on the controls, trying to keep their plane in the optimal attitude at all times, finally would get the advantage they had in RL over the ham fisted ones.

If you dont trim your plane correct it should lower your stamina.

well, thats a two ended stick. trimming in il2 its about 10x harder than in real life ence why people avoid it a lot more.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by pupo162

well, thats a two ended stick. trimming in il2 its about 10x harder than in real life ence why people avoid it a lot more.

You really think so?

Iirc, i've adjusted the elevator trim in the C152 almost as often as in the 109 in game, the Pa28 was a bit easier to trim, though.

Anyway, without proper trim -> no top speed, in game as in RL.

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by robtek

You really think so?

Iirc, i've adjusted the elevator trim in the C152 almost as often as in the 109 in game, the Pa28 was a bit easier to trim, though.

Anyway, without proper trim -> no top speed, in game as in RL.

well, in RL, i always felt confident of leaving the stick on it self after i was done trimming, in il2 never do i leave the hand out of the joystick, tough i trim all the time.

[Feathered_IV]

A girl with sideburns, sitting on my lap. And a Bofors gun