First fight in a 109

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by MoGas

And then?

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Tvrdi

Sure, I doubt flaps were used in combat, in WW2. But were "exploited" in old IL2 for turnings hehe

put them on an axis or scroll wheel.

[MoGas]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Cut throttle, force an overshoot and go into scissors. I usually combine this with a hard turn to obscure the cut. After about 100 degrees i give it full power again, turn hard into the other direction, applying a bit of rudder to make the troll faster and the scissors begins. The 109 has enough power to get into co energy state pretty fast again and the roll negates the Spits and Hurries superiour turn rate. From then on it's pilots ability, not so much plane characteristics anymore.

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by MoGas

ok, and this works for you? I am asking because if I am behind a 109 and she is doing that, and loosing all his advantage the speed and energy, she is to 90% done you dont need to follow exact his scissor and rolls or whatever, and you always cross the line of fire. It depends, if my ammo is still on 100% when I start to fight in such scenario, because, 50% in a close fight with a 109 doing negative barrels and scissors like Hannes Arch from red bull, she gets little damage and she starts to get away with all kind of smoke if you have bad luck.

Someone said to me ones, SpitII is not good, it forgives you mistakes, because you can always run away, well, I see that everyday when on RED.

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

[kestrel79]

Videos like that blow my mind. Cockpit is sooo small. Those guys had some balls. One of these times at EAA I'm going to have to try and sit in one of these things...

[Hellbender]

I flew the recent 3 weeks on BLUE side and I must say that I never got shoot down by a Hurricane or Spitfire since I always kept an eye on E-management and with the E-advantage, the 109 is unstoppable. Only super accurate Wellington or Blenheim AI gunners downed me or when I accidentally rammed them ( happens sometimes to me) and I had to bail out. However, in that time I rarely made voyages down below the cloud level.

Also, what I am missing is, that whiel FLying red and I fly 90% of times RED, there is mroe teamwork going on for the RAF. 109s can be quickly started and you are ready to go, but mostly one catches 109s lonely or sometimes in pairs somwhere over England which is nothing against 4-6 Reds flying together. Once one 109 was rushing into a formation of 9 Spits and Hurris just to find itself hit by 8 different planes .

Just yesterday I recorded the following footage of a 109 low dogfighting over Manston and then trying to run away:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrYrgs-Nnic

One think to be tired out is whether how effective the usage of the flaps in dogfights is. I heard soem peopel saying with that it is possible to stay in a turn with a Hurricane for a long time. Haven´t tried it yet.

[335th_GRAthos]

As the guy at Doc's video explains somewhere (or maybe it was another RAF pilot that made the comment at the full documentary) the Bf109 ruled the sky during the first year of the war.
The Bf109 could decide when to attack AND when to disengage.
Which is pretty much the case at ATAG...so like in real life (whether it hurts or not).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWoj0TWEQY

Originally Posted by jimbob

What if they don't descend?

The guy who run away always lived for a second fight


~S~

[jimbop]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

- Stifles sense of unbridled horror!

That's right and I felt guilty! At least they were on their way home after having made their drop, though. Nothing worse than getting all the way over and picking up a 109 on the final run.

[jimbop]

Thanks for the tips all, the looking forward to the next outing.

Originally Posted by MoGas

Like I did I guess it was you and me today isnt it? Well I would have follow you down to a certain point, but if my enemy turns his nose to Calais, then I am not following. But I couldnt keep up with you anyway, on youre dive and climb as I saw it at the first time, what your tactic would be, I stopped following.

You just didnt go low enough (on our start), for this to work you need to go down at 500m and keep playing the game (RED pilot believes to catching you still) until the Hurri or Spit is stuck behind, then you start the climb.

If he dosent descend, I would climb again in my own fields, and watch my enemy what he is doing. If he comes again I lower slightly my nose to speed up, and try again to drag him down. What I see online, after a little while, people loose the passion, and wanna take you NOW, and in such points mistakes gona happen. And you get youre E advantage again.

In such game, good SA is needed.

Yes, I thought it was you, MoGas. I managed to crash land and planned on writing something in chat from the menu but had an instant CTD when I hit escape.

One thing I found amusing on TS was the complaints about how tough the red AA was. You could exchange 'red' for 'blue' and have exactly the same discussion on the other side! Sounds pretty balanced to me.

[JG5_emil]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Yes, I'd say in 50 percent of all cases that works.

1. This only applies when for whatever reason, you find yourself with a spit on your tail and you already lost your energy advantage anyways.

2. Your description implies that when crossing the line of fire, you are still behind him in a way. That means cutting throttle and forcing an overshoot did not work. It works more often then you might think, though.

3. You also imply that the 109 rolls only on one plane, instead of also chaning altitude while scissoring, making him cross your line of fire a rather easy affair.

4. Spit pilots tend to be overcondident in slow turning fights and rarely display the descipline to pull away early enough when finding themselves in scissors. And the 109, with a better roll rate, simply works better in this kind of maneuvering. You change direction faster, that means you cut corners faster and eventually get the Spit in front of you.

All in all that does not fit to the tactics I am going after here.

If every time you perform a high energy manoeuvre your opponent used the opportunity to trade E for altitude you'd find yourself in a sticky situation. This might work on dogfight servers where it's not a big deal to get shot down and everyone wants their kill fix.