Oleg, what about SoW and DLC?

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

There would be problems, because having the correct aircraft with proper keys in the programming would be critical to having a decent Online game.

Oleg has mentioned how the multiplayer game went to pot when the IL2 code was hacked. This would probably mean "no 3rd party addons" of any kind could be allowed in BOB SOW.

Any openings into the code would be detrimental to the application. Oleg kept the code tight in IL2 for a long time, and then overnight---- wham, that was over. Someone finally found the gateway into the code and it was hacked.

Most of us who have been with the IL2 appreciate the way the code was managed to keep a viable online experience, up to recently.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Cheating and "gaming the game" and other negative stuff was in IL-2 online gaming long before it was hacked. The cheaters will cheat anyway, be the game a stock one or otherwise compiled one. Far easier to blame certain circumstances for online "dying" when it was already dying years ago due lack of any true new content. The gap between patches was VERY long. Now 4.10m added new stuff and it can be seen with slightly higher numbers in HL, but far from the times when IL-2 was younger.

SoW will allow 3rd Party stuff, but this time it is totally different. The proper tools and specific documentation will be released by the developers, not like in IL2 where the "other guys" learned thru trial & error. Only TD got the true tools one odd year ago to create new stuff for IL-2 and approval for it. Comparing SoW and IL-2 is fruitless as the starting points are so different regarding 3rd party work and their implementation.

[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

There would be problems, because having the correct aircraft with proper keys in the programming would be critical to having a decent Online game.

Oleg has mentioned how the multiplayer game went to pot when the IL2 code was hacked. This would probably mean "no 3rd party addons" of any kind could be allowed in BOB SOW.

Oleg has already explained that he hopes 3rd party developers will use SoW as a platform, and that for example full startup procedures might be possible for them if they choose to go so far with their detail level (i.e. beyond what SoW will initially cover). There is no technical barrier that would prevent this, only an organizational effort. After all, already Il2 had various 3rd party planes included in various releases.

[BigC208]

I don't mind downloading software. As long as I can also burn it to disk or order a hardcopy. Don't mind downloading updates but do not accept constant online requirement to be able to play.

When RoF came out I passed gracfully. Once they did away with the constant online requirement I bought the Iron Cross edition. Probably spend over $100 on the game so far. They have sales every now and then. Paying 3 or 4 bucks is not a bad deal. Paid $11 for the HP400. Compared to what the FSX addons go for not too bad. Besides, you don't have to buy it. The basic plane package is enough to keep most of us happy for a while.

Still I don't think the RoF route is the best to go for SoW. Too many fronts. Much better to stick with theater addons they can charge$50-$60 for with 5-10 flyable planes. That way the less popular historical planes still get some attention.

Demanding free content that we got at the beginning of Il2 is commercial suicide. The only free downloads I demand are bug fixes. Charge me a fair price and stay in bussiness to support and expand the SoW series.

[Blackdog_kt]

I agree as well.

Also,

Originally Posted by robtek

As much as i want OM to get a tidy profit out of his project, as much i am opposed to DLC!!!
I believe the il2-solution to sell additional upgrades/mission-packs with the necessary planes
and ground-models is perfect, as it guarantees that online, everybody has the same game when
flying in a war-theater.
Also everybody has the choice if he is interested in a theater to buy it or not.
Unlimited freedom of choice is not always a good thing.
Further i believe that the use of steam as a ADDITIONAL distribution path is great, but i want
to hold my game, with some additional material (maps, badges or something else), in my hands.

I think freedom of choice is good, but i agree on the rest. What if i am forced to sit out three missions in a row on a server because i didn't buy the DLC planes that are being used in the mission? What if a battle of France mission can't progress at all and we are all forced to sit it out for 3 boring hours waiting for the timer to expire, because everyone bought the hot-rod fighters and nobody bought the lowly Fairey Battles to actually do the ground pounding with?

Itemized content sales are good for different gaming genres. For games that want to emulate reality and depict history in a somewhat accurate fashion, selling expansions that contain an entire theater is a much better course of action for the reasons robtek stated.


In short, i don't demand freebies. I just think that itemized, single-aircraft downloads will seriously diminish variety in the online matches and hurt the overall gameplay quality and compatibility between players (even if they still can join in the mission without having the DLC plane, they can't fly it and are restricted), possibly even the historical accuracy of the experience as a whole. Mission builders can't or won't build realistic or interesting missions if nobody buys the "crap plane" that was used on the original operation, or it's not even available as AI.

Last time i checked up on RoF a few months ago, it still spawned 1917 aircraft types as opponents to the player's 1916 aircraft because they didn't have enough types (even as AI only) to adequately cover earlier scenarios. And that's another pitfall right here, itemized DLC sales provide enough of an incentive to dev studios to focus on providing flyable aircraft only (since they are the ones that can be expected to be payware), even if non-flyables and AI units are sorely needed to flesh out the sim's historical context and game world.


Look at a vanilla IL2 install and open up the FMB. Don't look at the flyable stuff, look at the rest of the aircraft, the AI ground units, the static objects. These are the tools the mission builder needs to create a living, breathing, accurate and interesting world for the rest of us to fly into. Not to mention that with SoW's rumored built-in modding support, the more AI units we have the more chance of someone in the community making it player-driven at some point: better gameplay for us, extra added value for the game (and thus, for Oleg's team as well), everyone wins.
If all we had was the flyables and only a handful of AI IL2 would have died off ages ago.

This is definitely not what i expect of SoW and i'm very glad that OM himself has said that piecemeal DLC is not a good business model for flight sims.
Sure, charge me enough to help the devs turn a profit, i'll gladly pay full game price for any subsequent expansion, i'm obviously not opposed to these guys getting paid for their countless hours of work.

I just want a nice box with maybe a collectible item inside like the old games (or a real manual) and a more or less complete theater right out of the box, instead of counting nickels and dimes and trying to choose which plane i will buy depending on what's used on the servers i like to fly on, or waiting for DLC to go on a reduced price promo sale. Pop the disk in the drive, install, start it up and go fly the entire theater with all its different missions and tactically varied operations, instead of just three aircraftagainst the same three opponents doing the same thing every single mission

[SlipBall]

I'm sure that Oleg has a business plan all ready for SOW. I don't think that he requires our financial advice.

[Krt_Bong]

Originally Posted by HanneG

Yes please I want to pay mucho for stuff that used to be free and don't get me started with what a pain it has been to download all that free stuff and now all that free stuff is sitting on my harddrive coercing me to play it incessantly... Oh and yeah Steam rocks, I like it when I can't do with my stuff as I please and I like being at the mercy of a company that may or may not exist tomorrow.

You're not at the mercy of anyone, Steam isn't going to disappear tomorrow and even if it were going to close their published policy on that is to unlock anything that they sell to be playable without it, even now you can play online when and if the server is down. It adds cost when you get a boxed copy with all kinds of printed materials included so for some a digital download is just fine while others prefer something in hand it's all good.

[mazex]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

+1

A niche like ours is really to small to sustain the development costs needed to satisfy the demands here if the games are sold at $49. I think a DLC system like the one RoF uses is a must unless you go the way with a base price of $125 like Steel Beasts Pro...

Sell new maps (large ones) for $10-20 and aircraft for $7-12 and I will buy most of what they throw at me... I must have spent something like $120 at RoF up to date buying all planes and I'm not done buying their stuff yet With the original IL2 model I would have paid $39 up to this date (as all the extra planes would have been free "patches")

My .2 /Mazex

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by mazex

+1

A niche like ours is really to small to sustain the development costs needed to satisfy the demands here if the games are sold at $49. I think a DLC system like the one RoF uses is a must unless you go the way with a base price of $125 like Steel Beasts Pro...

...

I must have spent something like $120 at RoF up to date buying all planes and I'm not done buying their stuff yet

Maybe you did buy all that stuff, but I've bought nothing of RoF at all. The question is, how many of each of us are there?

In fact, time for a poll? or is it not allowed because RoF is a competing product?

[robtek]

DLC, in my opinion, has been developed to get todays kids, with their short attention span, something new every few days to spent their money on.
As each item itself is not expensive they aren't aware how they are spending more of their money as they realize.