Level stabilizer "fix" in the next patch? (To luthier)

[Riksen]

Yeah Franky... hopefully a good one. By the way things are going we still have a long road before fixing bombers becomes a priority. So, as i said earlier, no CoD for me at least for now.

[Redroach]

Originally Posted by samich

its in no way realistic the way it works now. The bombadier would never have to setup and fly the plane with trims or solely rely on an autopilot to keep his plane level and its absolutely impossible to do when there flak flying around because the slightest knock means you're back to square one.

I highly doubt they intended to not include alevel stabaliser.

A quick look on wikipedia would have yielded this for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_%28air_force%29

And what are bombers supposed to do, according to you, when encountering flak? Flying slalom around them? Or having the waist gunner equipped with a frying pan, in order to knock the shells back to sender?

[samich]

all that link says is that in some planes using particularly bombsights, such as the nordon sight the bomber would take control of the plane and use the bombsight to control the autopilot. We dont have a nordon bombsight in cod and no pilots in any of the german planes or the current british planes were using a system even remotely like that..

also, i didn't say there was a problem with flak knocking a plane around but in real life that can be corrected for by a pilot while the bombadier does his job, he doesn't have to re trim the entire plane and re center it while trying to use the bombsight as well because that is an impossible task.

its almost like you were trying to sound like an idiot in that post

[Redroach]

I had to adjust my brain to be able to follow the logic of a 7-years-old, you know?

[PissyChrissy]

oh, here we go.

How does a simple conversation about the bomber functions in a flight simulator turn into this?

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by samich

all that link says is that in some planes using particularly bombsights, such as the nordon sight the bomber would take control of the plane and use the bombsight to control the autopilot. We dont have a nordon bombsight in cod and no pilots in any of the german planes or the current british planes were using a system even remotely like that..

also, i didn't say there was a problem with flak knocking a plane around but in real life that can be corrected for by a pilot while the bombadier does his job, he doesn't have to re trim the entire plane and re center it while trying to use the bombsight as well because that is an impossible task.

its almost like you were trying to sound like an idiot in that post

Actually the German bombers behaved almost identical to the US ones and even their bombsights were functioning on a similar principle (gyrostabilization).

I know it might be hard to break old habbits but yes, in the Luftwaffe and USAAF the bombardier was flying the plane through the bomb run via an autopilot.

Implementing a "level AI switch" (because that's what level stab actually is) is a step back. Just give us an improved level stab where you guide the AI pilot through key commands and the aircraft still shakes from flak and the pilot makes errors of 1-2 degrees, etc, to make it work like it actually did for the bombers that didn't have autopilots or automatic sights.

Up until late in the war, the RAF bomber command was sending thousands of crews against targets at night and the most precise method of control was the bombardier talking to the pilot on the intercom "left, left, steady, to the right a bit, steady,steady.....bombs away". And that's why until electronic systems and pathfinders were implemented, they were missing entire cities by as much as 10-20 miles.

In a similar fashion, until the US 8th AF got to grips with the real issues facing a daylight bomber raid, organized tactics and learned how to work with the advanced systems they had, they initially didn't score greatly.


Bombers in WWII used to miss and miss a lot and often. If people want a relaxed difficulty option with the old level-stab i'm fine with it, more options is always better for everyone. As long as it remains an option that full switch servers can turn off.

By the way, has anyone tried turning off realistic bombing in the difficulty settings and trying the level stab? Maybe they have already implemented it this way.

[PissyChrissy]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

By the way, has anyone tried turning off realistic bombing in the difficulty settings and trying the level stab? Maybe they have already implemented it this way.

Interesting. I gave that a try (turnging off realistic bombing), and it seemed to solve the problem i was having with the infinte wobbling when engaging course mode in the HE-111. I'm able to get the plane to settle on a straight course (still with the 5°-7° offest), and then make course adjustments with the course autopilot preset under the directional gyro.

I tried a level bombing run at 3000m, 250km/h, and was able to hit pretty close to what i was aiming for (still need practice). The only other thing that stood out was that now, with realistic bombing turned off, the bombsight seemed to be going off of IAS, not TAS - which is to say that with bombsight altitude set @ 3000m, the crosshair stayed locked onto the ground (with no vertical slip) with the bombsight velocity set at 250km/h, rather than 290. I'll do some more testing to confirm, but it looks like turning off realistic bombing lets you input the IAS rather than figuring out the TAS.

[PissyChrissy]

Yeah, i just went through another bombing run, and it all worked as outlined above. Seems we have a functional HE-111 with realistic bombing disabled, and the only cost to realism seems to be that you're inputting IAS into the bombsight rather than having to convert to TAS.

Now, if only i could get the rest of my flight to drop when i drop

[Blackdog_kt]

Cheers, thanks for testing this out. So it is in fact tied to a realism switch and the wobbling is intentional behavior, probably simulating the limitations of the gyro-stabilization system. Interesting.

With realistic bombing turned off maybe level stab works too, at least in the bombers that lack a course autopilot (BR.20 and Blenheim).

Another thing about the course autopilot, you can actually fly the aircraft at the same time that the autopilot is engaged. Maybe that is the trick to getting rid of the the 5-7 degree offset.

I've read the manual for A2A's add-on B-17 for FSX (i think it's freely available on their website, i got a peek on a friend's PC who's an avid FSX flyer) where they modeled the wartime autopilot and it's not a trivial thing to set up, requiring trimming for level flight before it's engaged and then some further fine-tuning to ensure it's accurate.

Maybe something similar is needed for the Luftwaffe course autopilot and we're meant to correct the offset by manual control inputs.

I would test this myself but it's Friday night and i'll probably end up going out for some drinks

[SG1_Lud]

When I made my tests, I found that if I took the time to trim the plane and fly her correctly, setting myself a steady course, and after that engaging the autopilot to the desired course (with the famous offset 5-6 degrees) the wobbling takes 2-3 cycles and its amplitude seems realistic to me.

But if you engage off trim, then you have a lot o wobbling.

Before I came to that conclussion, in my tests I tried too to "help" the auto course with my inputs, but that was not a solution.

Oh, and BTW, when I said trim, I am including the engine, so is important first to know howto fly the plane by hand in its correct settings; the more important ones:


Best cruise: ATA 1.2 RPM 2200 -> IAS = 285 km/h
Economical cruise: ATA 1.2 RPM 2100
Optimal bombing: ATA 1.0 RPM 2200, alt=3000m, compressor stage II -> IAS =250 km/h

This is for He-111 H with Jumo engines, as per the manual and I found correctly modelled.

So first put in parameters your engine, then you trim her, let the plane settle at level flight, and once you have it steady, set that course (with the offset), engage the auto and watch her.

So appart of the commented features needed for the bombardier, I am happy with the way the modelled it. of course not agaisnt having an option for those who want the things easier.

Hope it helps.