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#21
11-13-2011, 12:42 AM
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They certainly climb better up there than they do down low, relative to the 109. 
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#22
11-13-2011, 09:34 AM
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if you can get a 109 to stay slow, you will eat it alive with a spit... the spit doesn't lock up nearly as bad at high speeds (500kph+) and turns better at any speed. the only things you can't do with the spit are climb with a 109 and run from it.
but i mostly fly the 109... the main way to win with a spit is to keep your speed up and when you see the 109 get to the point where he can't disengage, but hasn't started to shoot, do a immelman and turn in a random direction, level out, get your airspeed back, rinse, repeat, you'll keep gaining altitude... but the main thing is not to bleed off all your airspeed, keep a good 200mph... and at the same time he'll be losing energy from constantly diving in on you, getting more impatient, and not getting that airspeed back like you keep doing... and don't ever let him behind u... never haha here's an immelman   but instead , once your plane is pointing streight up and down, roll your plane in a random direction first, then finish the turn. see... 109's are not as good at turning, most guys like to boom and zoom with them... and the only way to win against that is to equalize yours and his energy... if you have the same amount of energy as him, your plane is better 
Last edited by AKA_Tenn; 11-13-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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#23
11-13-2011, 12:21 PM
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#24
11-13-2011, 12:27 PM
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One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds.
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#25
11-13-2011, 12:56 PM
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What you suggest is a suicide in a Hurricane, you won't be able to climb up from a 109 if you both happen to be in a co-e engagement. If he's higher than you, you have to work really hard to slow him down and outmaneuver him. Good 109 pilot won't allow that and will keep his advantage and you can play in on time making his shooting difficult and climbing whenever possible. The thing with Hurri is you can't get too fast if you want to keep your maneuvrability advantage. You can't get too slow either because fast 109 will outturn you. If the 109 jockey makes a mistake and bleeds his speed he's dead, if you fly well you'll be on top of him rather soon. Even good 109 pilots can lose their patience and / or get frustrated after few attacks and bleed e slowing down going after you, break and climb. If you catch a 109 down below you certainly won't try to outclimb it to 20.000ft in order to have a upper hand. You have it already, so jump on it and depending how good he is (you'll see after first few moments, trust me), you either go aggressive or you carefully keep your e-advantage and pick your attacks. If you're good shot and if you fly clean, you will win. If he desengages, let him go, you won't catch him (well you will eventually, but that will be in France, far and low) And I agree with Doggles, I often struggle to understand what you mean and I don't get all your whining and accusing others of cheating on ATAG either. For sure, I don't agree with your advice regarding flying the Hurricane at all. Of course, flying high will help, on ATAG, some 13-15.000ft is plenty for RAF.
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#26
11-13-2011, 01:47 PM
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Regarding the actual topic, flying the Spitfire Mk.Ia - what has been said is valid for any fighter aicraft - e.g. stay fast, stay high (ideally both), loiter around dogfights and pick the strugglers etc.
The usual mistake you'll see on servers is Spits getting engaged with Bf 109s right after taking off (you got no choice sometimes, I know), but a 109 coming fast on you while you're down and slow is a difficult situation even for experienced pilot. You can turn better, but the 109 won't turn with you - he will zoom in and out, shooting at you in the process and you will be defending yourself hoping for a buddy to come over and help you out. It's so much better to be that buddy  The Spitfire is an excellent plane, it has got wings and it has got guns. You've got your head with brain in it. If you make good use of them three you can be very succesful pilot. 1. Unless you intend to practice defensive maneuvers and breaks, don't fly straight underneath the 109s. There are always some 109s near Hawkinge on ATAG - coming in various alts, make sure you're not below unless you have to. Climb instead and watch out for the enemy. 2. When engaged in a fight, say 109 above dives on you - break hard enough to make his shooting difficult, but keep your speed and gain some height whenever possible. Don't even think about outclimbing him, your plane can't do that. You won't be able to catch him either if he decides to break away. The key is to fly your maneuvers clean and make him bleed his energy trying to attack you, climbing afterwards, ideally rolling into his turn so he can't do a hammerhead on you. You will see if you're gaining, but carefuly with your nose up as if you get too slow trying to get a shot, your Merlin III will cut as your nose drops in a near stall situation and you will lose precious seconds. That's not worth it, if done correctly, you might as well gain some angles depending on the initial energy difference. Obviously, if he comes in with massive E advantage and zooms up 2km above you, you better bugger off. If you feel you can fight him despite his advantage, try doing this, chose trajectory where he won't be able to roll into you and shoot and don't pull more than necessary. It's a thing to master on all the aicraft - keep you energy, fly clean and smooth. Then, eventually he either notices he's sort of co-e with you and disengages, in which case let him and climb away and watch him closely. Or he won't notice the danger until you make some .303 holes in him. Just shot him down. If he hits you though, that's pity because you already made a mistake of being below a 109 and this is just a way to fix that mistake, doesn't work against good 109 pilots. Good news there is not many of them 3. Ideally, you made it to some 11-13k and you see a dogfight, perhaps some RAF chaps chasing a 109. Let them do their job, there is nothing more annoying than some hot shot spoiling your fight when you're behind your target. If you see a pair engaged in a fight in paragraph 2., e.g. a 109 zooming a Spit or a Hurri, it's your turn. Don't go in being another Spit the 109 zooms! Climb and get the bugger when he can't see you. It's all about timing, the Emil yo-yos up and down, slowing down for a hammerhead or immelman - that's when you want to get him. He probably won't see you at all as he's busy not losing the contact underneath him. You can dive on him or even better, make a zoom climb as you got more control that way. Even if he hears you or sees you coming, there is nothing much he can do. Make sure you hit him, the 303 are devastating if used right. Practice your shooting! 3. The 109 pilots sometimes think they can outclimb you. But they can not. If you come from good position, if you can keep your energy and if you fly clean, you'll catch them and let them have it. That is priceless feeling in any aircraft, but slightly more so in a RAF fighter against a 109 because you beat them on their own ground so to speak. 4. If you happen to be in a co-e fight against a 109, what you do all depends on how your oponent handles the plane. You can outturn him (but don't bleed too much speed), he's stronger on the vertical (especially stall fight as your engine will caugh, his won't), fly yo-yos to trade speed for alt and fly better than him. Shoot better than him and you will win. Good 109 pilot won't turn with you and rather decides to extend and come back with advantage. This is rather hypothetical as if you see a Emil turning after you you know he doesn'k know what he's doing and if he keeps doing that you'll be shooting at him after 2 cycles. Still, don't go too horizontal, fly clean lag and pull only as hard as you need to win the fight and keep your speed. Careful with 109s going in fast, they turn better than you for at that speed (theirs is high, yours is low) and certainly can get few 20mm holes in you. Above applies to Hurricane as well, the difference being mainly maneuvrability, speed and roll rate, but they somehow share the main characteristics regarding basic advantages - disadvantages against a 109.
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#27
11-13-2011, 02:10 PM
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One of the best posts I've read in this forum. Kudos, Robo!
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#28
11-13-2011, 02:39 PM
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That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments. Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ? Btw : thx this makes me laughing a good min Regarding your 2nd post and the fact that the Spit can out-climb a 109 that's exactly what I put frwrd that we shld not hve here, especially with zoom climb. I just went out of a dogfight with a spit that completed his stupid flat 360 at 80+ deg bank and zoom back behind me closing like he just hve been catapulted. Wht was my move ? At the beginning of his 360 I simply extended forward with nose up. ANd no Rob, I was not on the verge of a stall. Last edited by TomcatViP; 11-13-2011 at 02:50 PM.
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#29
11-13-2011, 02:57 PM
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TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.
Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased). What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.
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#30
11-13-2011, 03:08 PM
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Linear Mode
