BF109 - Can't we just have the gunsight in the middle?

Lixma, as you have the best skills to explain all this and also all the information, including the things you just posted about the revi adjustments and the FW190 thing: could you assemble all this into one fluid text/document and provide this to luthier?

Perhaps open a new thread in the FM section with an appropriate title (just an illustration for what I mean - you surely will find a better one than me: "Pilot with two eyes and revi sights: How it should be") and put all the explanations and pictures in it. And send the link to luthier.

[Lixma]

I probably will at some point....although the thought of going through all this again is a little daunting.

In the meantime i'll just repost the FW-190 thing for the new page, so it will get seen. This picture does a phenomenal job of illustrating the issue at hand. I only wish I had found it 25 pages ago.....sigh.

Originally Posted by Lixma

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

[heloguy]

I guess if it ever came to fruition, it would be a big help to those that don't use Track IR, as their head would be held (aside from the headshake affect) directly in the middle. If you lean at all to the left, though, it should not be very far before the image would disappear. The effect could also be used on the Spitfire and Hurricane, if someone is leaning to the left or right of their sights.

The mount you showed does seem to have a telescoping piece, but I wonder exactly what it would be for. It's certainly not made for making fine adjustments and then being fixed in place. It looks like it only adjusts from one extreme to another.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Please have a scan through the thread again, especially the posts/pictures dealing with what a real 109 pilot would see through his left and right eye compared with the Cyclops depicted in CoD.

You missed this :

After reading the FULL thread and generally agreeing with Lixma, I think that the classic IL2 SHIFT+F1 view was more correct, because one doesn`t have to lean close to the revi to see the crosshair, IF HE IS SITTING SLIGHLY TO THE RIGHT.

Hence, the old il2 gunsight view should be restored.

So it is easily visible I don`t agree with you 100%. Only thing is that I figured that currently the crosshair view in the game sets the pilot leaned in, and slighly to the right when only one of those should be performed to see the crosshair. That is why I prefer the classic il2 - gunsight view - over the new view. In that view, the pilot is set slightly to the right without the need to lean in closer to the revi (which means narrowing the field of view).

[jf1981]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Seriously.

Over a decade of faffing about with Shift-F1, leaning over, loosening straps or whatever...i'm weary of it. Just place the damned thing in the centre of the dash! Is anyone really going to be put out by such a minor concession to usability?

Realism be hanged in this instance.

And please, put glass cockpit, it's worth for getting a better view.

Seriously ! It's meant to be realistic, you can go in front of it by setting the key to position related to fastening belt. Then you'll find yourself in front of the sight.

[klem]

Originally Posted by carguy_

...............That is why I prefer the classic il2 - gunsight view - over the new view. In that view, the pilot is set slightly to the right without the need to lean in closer to the revi (which means narrowing the field of view).

I think you're still missing the point. In the "IL-2" view, and in CoD, the pilot is "moved" to "sit to the right" of the centre line but it is only a crude attempt to make it feel like you're using your right eye.

Look at the diagram Lixma posted. The Revi sight is immediately in front of the pilots right eye without him having to move. MG just need to show the reticle in the offset gunsight of the 'normal' view. An offset of 40mm from centre would have made virtually no real difference to the aiming point in RL although MG may need to look at the aiming code for CoD.

I'd go further and say I don't see a need for a shifted 'gunsight' view at all. With the reticle visible in 'normal' view there is no need for an offset view and IMHO no need for a shifted 'gunsight' view in any aircraft, just an FOV change if you want to narrow/zoom the view.

The "shifted pilot view" is not realistic at all. It never existed. We've simply come to think it must be right because its always been there in IL-2.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by heloguy

If you lean at all to the left, though, it should not be very far before the image would disappear.

Yeah, the reticle should still appear/disappear due to G-forces on the pilot during manoeuvring.

Originally Posted by heloguy

The mount you showed does seem to have a telescoping piece, but I wonder exactly what it would be for. It's certainly not made for making fine adjustments and then being fixed in place. It looks like it only adjusts from one extreme to another.

That sounds reasonable. I'd never actually seen one before I found those pictures so I'm not certain how it was used. On the other hand the ability to adjust, even crudely, the range of the gunsight from the pilots' eyes would be very useful.

[Blackdog_kt]

Sorry to bump this but i found a workaround. I don't know if it has been mentioned (i didn't read the entire thread), so apologies if it has been already mentioned.

For starters and obviously enough, if you're using a head tracking device you can set your center position to be offset and get rid of this issue: just move you head left, press your centering key and when you move back into your usual center position your view will be shifted to the right, giving you a nice view of the gunsight.


However. even if you don't have a head tracking device there is a solution to this. Turn off the mouse cursor to get the mouse to work as a camera controller (default key for this is F10), keep the right mouse button pressed and move the mouse around: you will see that you can move the camera forward/backward/left/right.

Alternatively, you can keep the mouse cursor on and follow the same routine but with the middle mouse button also pressed: middle mouse button acts as a temporary "over-ride" that disables the mouse cursor and enables camera control for as long as it's pressed, so that you don't have to keep switching between clickable cockpit and camera control all the time.

This way you can set your default viewpoint to be aligned with the gunsight. I think that pressing the "center view" key (default is keypad 5) will not reset your view changes as it only applies to the pitch/roll/yaw axis of head movement (it even over-rides freetrack in that respect, if i move my view to the right it stays there until i manually move it back with the mouse, i don't know how it works with trackIR though).

This way you can fly with the 109 gunsight centered no matter if you use a head tracker or not, it's like setting up your viewpoint to have a permanent lean to the right

[Wolf_Rider]

Have to be careful though, because as Lixma keeps pointing out; the sim views is set for a single point of vision (perspective), not a two point perspective, which is natural eyesight. It is this which 1C attempted to overcome with the SHIFT F1 gunsight view.

physically moving the single perspective to right would throw targeting off?

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Have to be careful though, because as Lixma keeps pointing out; the sim views is set for a single point of vision (perspective), not a two point perspective, which is natural eyesight. It is this which 1C attempted to overcome with the SHIFT F1 gunsight view.

physically moving the single perspective to right would throw targeting off?

No, because the Revi's reticle image is focussed at infinity. As long as you can see the reticle you can be safe in the knowledge that you are seeing the true aim-point (assuming the guns are zeroed...etc)

I know what you're getting at...it seems as if the sight-line would diverge off to the diagonal left pretty soon due to the Revi's right offset. And if the Revi was replaced by a simple wire 'ring' sight in the same position then, yes, we'd be in trouble. We'd need at least a further sighting aid (a bead further down the sight-line) to help us align our sight. Reflex/reflector sights do away with this necessity.