Friday Update, January 27, 2012

[theOden]

Thank you zapatista.

[bongodriver]

Disclaimer: just my frustrated perspective 12 months after release, your personal mileage may vary depending on pc hardware used, and on your standards of what a well rounded completed game should be in 2012.

Here is the real substance of that post, the rest is just a wall of text of the usual whingeing.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

And yet IL2 was the best WW2 Sim ever to hit the markets. Maybe you should check your standarts here, Stern, and get a little reality check.

Or even better, as once again you appear to be much better in the know then everybody else, start your own Sim company to make us all happy in regards to WW2 Simming.

Il-2 was a cornerstone in combat simulation,but it's still a rough diamond.
I dunno whether you use modded versions of it now,but the guys tha work on it on their free time did wonders with it, applying modifications that are relatively simple but add so much to the game longevity!

Oleg & co. delivered an incredible product,but there never was an immersive GUI, FMs were rough and incomplete as well (no flexing airframes,no wake turbulence,approximate ground handling and behaviour to name a few..) and graphics have always been a bit dull.

It still managed to be the best combat sim product,but merely because there wasn't much competition in the way.

I have a full time job that keeps me busy enough,but I confess I'd like to take on such venture, the only paramount condition is to select the right team,because working on this is a labour of love, and a leader must be able not only to manage,but motivate and provide a view both for his employees and his customers.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by zapatista

Ataros,

i'll have to disagree with you there. you have made some well informed posts here, so i'll try and summarise why

first, let me say i am seriously underwhelmed by the p*** poor content of the "update" just released. other then it being nice to have somebody like B6 actually communicate with the fan base now, the "progress report" regarding the fixing of important and much overdue CoD issues is essentially zilch !

iirc its been over 4 or 5 months now that this "soon to be released major rebuild of the gfx engine" was announced, and ever since then the 1C production house has gone into hibernation it seems, even making worrying statements some months ago that "all work on the patch had been halted" (i paraphrase, but most here will remember that luthier statement some months ago). And all we still get now is "we are working on it" ?
whatever goodwill there was in the first months of the last years release fiasco, this has now long evaporated with me (and many others here), and I’d lable myself as one of the most ardent oleg/il2 supporters, with many who have passed through this forum here having the scars to prove it.

in short, its about 12 months since release time, and other then people with monster pc's, its still barely playable right now and has way to many major bugs to make it an enjoyable sim "out of the box". Maybe to some here the poor gfx engine performance giving v low fpsec and STILL many micro-stutters can be put down to “2011 pc complexity in programming” , but most other problems cant be excused by that. yet we are being told fixing many of the other bugs is being delayed by the gfx engine rework (while 2/3 of the 1c staff seem to already be working on the next sim). that logic doesnt compute with me, sure have a few iddle object designers work on moskow buildings, but all the rest should be still hard at work fixing and completing fiasco nmber 1.

For ex the poor visually impression of the virtual southern English landscape we are supposed to fly over, it still doesnt look or feel like any english landscape/scenery that I know (and yes I lived there for 6 years, so I do know). for ex fields and smaller roads in southern england would usually be lined by hedges, and NOT lines of trees as might be the case for french roads (and is now done in CoD for England). In all these 12 months of delays with the perfornce patch, is there really not a single grafix designer in the 1C team who could have been addressing some of those visual issues ? it could be done in a few weeks by a team of 2 grafik artists, and it would completely change the feel of the game. and is there really not one person availble in the whole 1c team that can give us some basic ground AI activity like ambulances and refueling/rearming animations ? spice it up a little bro, you'd be amazed at what some eye candy does to keep the fans interested and patient.

Further there are still significant omissions for ex, no dynamic campaign, limited weather, no AI ground activity at airfields, minimal single missions, major problems with coops and crashes, some major errors like general AI aircraft behaviour and friendly AI control, some significant flight model issues in some of the allied planes, poor simulation of distant object visibility from cockpit (which shows NOTHING was learned from what was one of the main downfalls of the il2 series in the SIMULATION of ww2 pilot experience) , and many unfinished elements (still flying through trees eh).

I don’t mind if some of the grand ambitions have been postponed (driving vehicles, controlling ships, advanced tactical control in a dynamic campaign, full dynamic weather etc), but all the previous problems I listed should be solved by now 12 months after release imho. for a next gen sim that was for years promoted as being a quantum leap into "simulation realism", there is LOTS to fix and finish right now, before most of the current customers can get even interested in the next edition of il2. a few i16 pics and a vague "we'r working on it" just doesnt do it anymore, and having some well meaning fans jump on anybody that points some of this out doesnt solve it either.

btw, i was GIVEN a russian download version of CoD about 6 months ago (as a thank you for building a friends new pc), and i DELETED it, it was so unplayable on my system (and i dont have weeks to waste to fiddle with it to try and get it to run each time a micro patch is released on steam). i tried it again about 3 months ago (with all the steam updates) and it was still UNPLAYABLE (except if you just fly over water and limit yourself to air quake servers online), even if my pc is mid-range (i5 dual core, 4 gb ram, ati 5770 1 gb card, 27' monitor at 1920 x 1200, hotas, track –ir etc). to get such negative feedback from some of the most ardent and long term oleg supporters (having played il2 since its first demo almost 10 yrs ago) speaks for itself, there is something seriously rotten in denmark ! sure, for people with monster pc's (and there are a few here) they now get reasonable performance over land/cities, but that is the only exception (and they are the main posters of the video's you refer to) and for them it is also a very limited experience in flying online in dogfight servers that have nothing in comon with an unfolding historical BoB SIMULATION , for the rest of us its a pretty buggy game with poor performance, let alone speaking of wanting a decent unfolding BoB scenario with all its variety and complexity.

the key issue is to get a major rebuild of the gfx engine, so the overall performance of the game is up to scratch (forget about adding elements like dynamic weather which will significantly further stress our humble pc’s), and that is exactly what these updates should be focused on right now. If you’d want to keep people quiet while you are doing it, then give them some morsels to chew on, like a new BoB theater plane or warship, or fix some of the ai issues and flight models, don’t insult our intelligence by giving irrelevant trivia about the next installment you are planning to sell to your unsatisfied current customers. Btw I checked the BoB/CoD prices at my local game store yesterday because i still intend to buy a normal copy once it is fixed (so I don’t have to keep messing with the English dll and feel I am “contributing” like I did during the il2 series of releases), and the price is still 89$. But instead of giving you the money, I bought the latest installment of Call of Duty Modern Warfare for my nephew.and that about sums it up for me, simply not worth the money in its current state.

I’m an optimist, I can see the promised land, and have done so since oleg started putting this project together with his great ambitions. But all CoD-BoB is doing for me now is showing the POTENTIAL it has, not what it IS right now as an enjoyable playable game out of the box (unless you have an uber pc and ignore some very annoying omissions and irritating bugs). If some users are having thrills with it and like it, great, I am not here to tell them they shouldn’t (and i dont come here to make posts in that vein). but for many here like me, ignoring its many flaws and problems and pretending it is working well 12 months after release is a load of equine fecal matter being masqueraded as a black forest gateaux, it just don’t fly baby, however much i love oleg for what he has done over the years, and however keen i am on wanting BoB/SoW to succeed !!

Disclaimer: just my frustrated perspective 12 months after release, your personal mileage may vary depending on pc hardware used, and on your standards of what a well rounded completed game should be in 2012.

I agree with many of your thoughts here, and so much easier for me because that was a lot of typing you did. I think many of us long term supporters are left scratching our heads with the 1C priorities concerning this sim. It breaks my heart to admit that I have zero interest in the next sequel. 1C has severely damaged their perceived capability and credibility in my mind, and may be en route to financial disaster. I think they should have been focused on getting this sim running for the masses before working on a sequel.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I agree with many of your thoughts here, and so much easier for me because that was a lot of typing you did. I think many of us long term supporters are left scratching our heads with the 1C priorities concerning this sim. It breaks my heart to admit that I have zero interest in the next sequel. 1C has severely damaged their perceived capability and credibility in my mind, and may be en route to financial disaster. I think they should have been focused on getting this sim running for the masses before working on a sequel.

So your answer to secure the finances of a company you believe is on rocky ground is to suspend any further revenue earning projects? the dead horse of why COD was released in the shape it was has been flogged into oblivion, most reasonable people have already come to terms with it and are just patiently waiting for the upcoming fix....this is where the whole debate 'should' end, 1C have every right to continue in their business just like every other company (airbus A380 have cracked wings, should airbus pull production of all other aircraft?), working on patches does 'not' put food on the table.

[jimbop]

The "debate" should have ended 300 posts ago. Unsubscribing from this waste of time...

[Sternjaeger II]

It's about reputation bongo,we're fans,but there are thousands of potential customers out there tha might be put off by the awful reviews and the lack of a clear vision and months (or years!) of wait.

Squash the bugs,sort your core product out, THEN work on other projects. I'm sure there are still a lot of things that can be fixed and/or implemented in CoD in terms of 3d modelling.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

So your answer to secure the finances of a company you believe is on rocky ground is to suspend any further revenue earning projects?

What I believe is that others feel the same about the situation...if sales are poor, it didn't have to be.

[Insuber]

Luthier's explanations sounds credible, but they only explain a part of the issue. What he says about the amazing amount of time to accomplish the same things, or slightly improved ones, is indeed true, and we see it in everyday's life and work. And in video games imo the complexity increases exponentially with resolution, not in a linear way.
But (there is always a "but" ), in this equation Complexity is only one factor, the others being Good Management, Careful Resource Planning, Quality Control ... and as we use to say, a good explanation (excuse) doesn't replace a timely delivery, with the expected quality.

Anyway - no alternatives - I encourage the team and Luthier to work hard and finish strongly, a strong finish will make all of us forget the miserable start.

Cheers,
Ins

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

It's about reputation bongo,we're fans,but there are thousands of potential customers out there tha might be put off by the awful reviews and the lack of a clear vision and months (or years!) of wait.

Squash the bugs,sort your core product out, THEN work on other projects. I'm sure there are still a lot of things that can be fixed and/or implemented in CoD in terms of 3d modelling.

Tosh! the reviews are already out there and theres nothing that can be done, what we don't need are the constant whingers here adding to the damage, to be hones appart from a couple of ships I don't think theres any need for more 3D work in COD, including the Italian stuff was a waste of time that could have been better spent making more LW and RAF stuff flyable, I don't care if it takes a year (since release) to fix COD....the whole point it is being fixed and the devs have made it crystal clear what's involved and why, most of the whingeing is just a petty attempt to muddy those waters with bizarre speculation.

I make my point again that fixing COD isn't bringing funds in, whatever comparissons you want to make with 1C's strategy and Hitlers plans, 1C have no other choice but to work on something to make some more money.