Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[JAMF]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Then again, for security reasons the actual map for BOB SOW may not be what we are seeing in the screenshots. Afterall, the SOW is about the Battle of Britain. It just doesn't make sense for a BOB to not have all the groups covered.

Let's hope they still have the map as "in development" because, as it was pointed out in another forum, the Basin de l'Atlantique wasn't built till after the war.

Center of image: Harbour to the left of Dunkirk


"Today" : Harbour roadstead to the left, docks to the right, near city centre


Aerial '44. Harbour and sea access near city centre. Would overlay the image above to the right quarter.

[Asheshouse]

That 1944 aerial image looks awfully similar to the details on an il2 map which I've seen somewhere.

[Jadehawk]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

This is the other part of shots from FMB: Don't ask about list of all planes I show only these that I want to show.

Oleg and gang,
It's been quite a long time since I posted here for Il2. but I have been following the progress always and after checking your screen shot examples, I would suggest the following:
Consider changing the nation flag for Germany and Italy to Black. Britian, Canada and France to Blue, USA to Green. I do not know if this is possible, but just a suggestion. As with everyone else, I am greatly looking forward to seeing this game in the near future!

Jadehawk

[Rodolphe]

...


First of all I would like to thank Oleg and his team for this interesting glimpse of the FMB and Map.

Originally Posted by JAMF

Let's hope they still have the map as "in development" because, as it was pointed out in another forum, the Basin de l'Atlantique wasn't built till after the war.

@JAMF
This issue could be more complex to solved.


Anachronism and map

Years ago, when the '1946' title became available, the included 'Bonus' DVD allowed us to discover the early phases of development of the so eagerly-awaited BoB SoW.

Among other subject, that video uncovered the dev'team members at their respective 'Battle station", depicting some of the today well-known aircraft, vehicles, buildings, miscellaneous objects and map.

With one scene, we could overlooked Maxim K', working on the South-East Canterbury area with the Map Builder tool.



At that time I was a little worried about the referential map data used to create the in-game map. For example, the M2/A2, the motorway connecting Dover to London was depicted (in red on the above picture) on the referential map which most certainly confirmed the use of a modern, post WWII map edition. Hopefully this motorway is not represented on the game map. ; ))




Last summer, the BoB SoW July 09th update, the following screenshot had a first example of anachronism with the existence of the King George VI Reservoir (opened only in November 1947) .







With this update, I still have some worries with the publication of the latest screenshots.

Let's have a look on the rapidly expending post war urbanization of towns and cities and compare the extract of this Ordnance Survey of Great Britain 1940's edition map with the BoB SoW Map.





We can observe the quite larger brown cities areas of the future game map compared to the original 1940'S map.


A closer look at the town of Southend






Now I go back to my armchair next to the open fire with a wonderfull feeling of drowsy tranquillity.

...

[Sutts]

Oh dear, looks like someone's been relying too much on google earth. Shame we didn't see the map sooner. This explains why all the fields have modern day tractor tramlines too. And the 1947 reservoir and so on......

You'd think they could have found a period map to use.

Just hope modders have access to the main map.

Shame.

[Sutts]

You're right Roldophe. The areas depicted on the SoW map look like they're lifted straight from modern day google earth.

Period orndance survey maps for the area can be found here:

http://www.ponies.me.uk/maps/osmap.html

If you compare the period map with the SoW offering you can clearly see how the individual settlements of the time have been merged and spread outwards. Canvey Island (highlighted in blue) did have a small development area but nothing like that presented on the SoW map (which matches modern google almost exactly).

Even more interesting is Basildon which in the 1940s was a collection of a few streets hardly worth mentioning. After the war this area was designated one of the modern "New Towns" and was massively expanded. This expansion is seen on the SoW map.

The sad thing is, if this is true, then the developers have spent hundreds of hours creating huge populated areas which never even existed at the time. I was really hoping to get an experience of flying over wartime Britain. It looks like what we'll be getting is a very modern Britain with all its huge, ugly post war expansion. A real disappointment for me.

With all the attention to detail the team has shown in the aircraft area, I really did expect to see at least a bit of basic research in the map department.

I do hope I'm proven wrong.

[Il2Pongo]

I don't think much of allot off peoples gripes, but what you have shown here is pretty significant.
The whole character of the area is changed if the towns are all 2010 density and sprawl vs 1940 density and sprawl.

Wont stop me for a second from playing or buying, but it is significant to the flavour of the maps and the polygon counts as well.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Sutts

Oh dear, looks like someone's been relying too much on google earth. Shame we didn't see the map sooner. This explains why all the fields have modern day tractor tramlines too. And the 1947 reservoir and so on......

You'd think they could have found a period map to use.

Just hope modders have access to the main map.

Shame.

Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?

[Sutts]

Looks like all towns got the same treatment. Here's Slough which sits above Windsor with the Thames running inbetween. I've drawn 2 red lines which pretty accurately box in Slough on the period map. One line is drawn from the right edge of Windsor (which hasn't changed much) and the other is taken from the right edge of the big loop in the Thames before it turns north again briefly.

As you can see, the size of Slough is approx. 3 times what it should be in 1940.

I include the same lines on the SoW map and a modern google earth map for comparison.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by swiss

Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?

With respect, just because something isn't important to you doesn't mean everyone else feels the same. This is an historical sim. The German crews will be bombing historical towns.

I know many of us were hoping to be able to navigate using period maps and bomb aim using original target maps. Also, just feeling the atmosphere of undeveloped 1940s Britain would have been nice too.

This all goes out of the window if the map is based on modern Britain. I wouldn't be surprised to see the M40 in there too!

We're not talking about small differences here. Anyone who lives in the UK knows about the sprawl of the post war New Towns. Bracknell used to be a little village. Now it's a huge sprawling mess of a place. Same with Milton Keynes and countless other places.

I realise it's too late now....but it was a very simple task to obtain a period map before work began.