Give me some "holy sh... did that just happen" ideas

[kimosabi]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

This is Bud Peterson talking about events that happened while he was flying a P-51: clearly not during the Battle of Britain. Such incidents almost certainly became more common as the war progressed.

In any case, 'it happened' is hardly a justification for reenacting it in a computer simulation.

Probably, but we don't know that. If it happened in 1943-1944 it could just as well have happened in 1940. A jerk flying a plane in 1940 is still a jerk in 1944. If they went by your reasoning there, 'it happened' would hardly have been a justification for basing a simulation on BoB.

[robtek]

Mine also!
I think it is advisable to suppress those distasteful details as long as they are not important for the game!

[Feathered_IV]

Don't misunderstand me. I certainly do not suggest that AI pilots of either side strafe chutes as a matter of routine. Rather, that it be a rare occurrence dependant on the individuals AI's setting.

Several years ago I'd written about AI settings in the old ORR. I thought AI should be on a slider. Four sliders actually. Skill, Aggessiveness, Stamina and Morale. Combinations of those would produce a host of unique pilot behaviors. Aggressive rookies, tired aces, fanatical veterans, heroes and cowards.

The subject of shooting a pilot in their parachute was one central to the history and conduct of the Battle of Britain. Both among pilots and at higher levels. Indeed, it was the first time in the history of aerial warfare that the practice came into close consideration. Post-war pilot and historical accounts rarely fail to mention it.

[Feathered_IV]

Johnny Kent, commander of 303 Sqn during the Battle of Britain instructed his pilots to kill all German airmen who parachuted to saftey. Four of his pilots even went so far as to destroy a crippled Ju87 that was attempting to force land at 303's own aerodrome.

One of the Few. Gp.Capt J.A. Kent. Published by Corgi, 1971

[Blackdog_kt]

It would be a great feature, because it would give the single-player pilot incentives to go on revenge trips and fuel virtual rivalries. For example, imagine getting sufficient rank to be allowed lone-wolfing, or maybe drawing up your own freijagd/rhubarb missions amidst the campaign generated ones. You would go over your guncam films and try to pinpoint the unit, raid their airfield and provoke the other guy to come up and meet you until you could exact revenge, cinematographic things like that.

It would be a so-so feature if you needed to replay an epic mission where you got 4 kills before running out of ammo, chewed up the tail off the 5th kill with your prop and then bailed out, before meeting a sadistic AI pilot that kills your ingame character, forcing you to replay the sortie or lose your campaign.

It would also be an awful feature because of the rants it would cause. I give it less than a month from release before people start openly debating the frequency of sadist AI appearances per nationality, and we all know this would probably end up in a big case of "nazis only did it" vs "everyone did it to an extent" vs "allies never did it" vs "everyone except my country's noble fighters did it"

Never the less, Feathered always comes up with good ideas gameplay-wise, i just don't see it making the release because of the reasons stated in the previous paragraph. Maybe we could work on this theme of revenge and personal investment without being too "politically incorrect" and come up with something else?

Also, the expanded AI attributes idea is simply brilliant.

[Erkki]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

It would be a great feature, because it would give the single-player pilot incentives to go on revenge trips and fuel virtual rivalries. For example, imagine getting sufficient rank to be allowed lone-wolfing, or maybe drawing up your own freijagd/rhubarb missions amidst the campaign generated ones. You would go over your guncam films and try to pinpoint the unit, raid their airfield and provoke the other guy to come up and meet you until you could exact revenge, cinematographic things like that.

No need to add such feature, people already do that online!

[kimosabi]

I agree with Feathered IV. It could be implemented as a very rare occurance, and alot of pilots may never see it as well, in single player. Knowing that it could happen, even very rarely, would provide the game with more immersion and edge. I don't think any WW2 pilot felt safe hanging from their chute, especially when they had bogeys nearby.

What I would really like to see is point deduction for any human player that does it, I have seen alot of jerks around that does it just for the hell of it and that takes away alot of the sportsmanship I enjoy in IL-2. There are also alot more chute-killers in the game than there was in WW2. Just look at all the <gunstat commands going on. Alot of point-whores online and a point deduction would probably make the vast majority of them to quit doing it.

If cruelty in the game would be such a big deal to everyone, I suggest that they also swap out the real guns and make us shoot flowers at eachother instead. Maybe even Mario could be your wingman.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Adolf Hitler himself ordered his pilots NOT to shoot pilots in chutes. They were far more valuable alive for information than as a dead lump. And Hermann Göring and Adolf Galland had a discussion about this as well, neither accepted it. And most of pilots did not regard chute shooting acceptable, both RAF and Luftwaffe. Sure there were those individuals that did it during BoB and later, but I think over 90% of them did not even remotely thinking so.

I read somewhere that 8th Air Force FG commanders, some of them, had ordered their pilots to kill Germans in their chutes "to prevent them from fighting another day". If I do not recall wrong it was 352nd FS or something and one unit was where Chuck Yeager flew, his commander did order this. Most of pilots did not follow this order, but many did. Heinz Knoke mentions after bailout his wingman was shot to pieces by a P38, his chute landed in time and hid in bushes to avoid being strafed.

Reference: In his 1986 memoirs he(Chuck Yeager) noted with disgust that "atrocities were committed by both sides" and went on to recount going on a mission with orders from the Eighth Air Force to "strafe anything that moved". During the mission briefing he whispered to Major Donald H. Boschkay; "If we are going to do things like this, we sure as hell better make sure we are on the winning side". He further noted "I’m certainly not proud of that particular strafing mission against civilians. But it is there, on the record and in my memory."

But not to raise hell, my opinion is that shooting chute should be omitted altogether and made impossible for player too. The chute would just represent a bailed pilot without being destroyable. Seen enough of this arsehattery online already.

[Feathered_IV]

Sorry to kick over a hornets nest. I certainly do not glory in the bloody details of war. Though to see it sanitised and turned into a jolly fun game for ages eight and over is an obscenity in itself too.

[Sturm_Williger]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Sorry to kick over a hornets nest. I certainly do not glory in the bloody details of war. Though to see it sanitised and turned into a jolly fun game for ages eight and over is an obscenity in itself too.

I have to agree with this.

Also, the idea as conceived by Feathered in his writeup certainly fits well within the concept of this thread and would in any event be something like a 1 in a 1000 occurrence. It would also give the player a moment of anxiety while hanging in his chute in a single-player campaign mission if some AI enemy aircraft came close - of course, 999 times out of 1000 they would waggle their wings and fly off ( as happened ).