Target visibility

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

In other words, every time I switch to 30 fov in IL2 CLoD, its as if I was using what most games call 'binoculars' -

to make the dots bigger






most FPS's are user altered to run @ 90 deg FoV and in those games running a high FoV is considered a cheat... altering the Fov for zoom, is to "assume" a zoom bearing in mind the technical limitations of monitors.


Field of View is associated with magnification yes, I've never denied that, however, they are not same thing as you claimed earlier.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

to make the dots bigger

Ok tell me you're just being an ass now!

But seriously, the dots get harder to see at smaller fovs because of the way they work - they remain the same size in terms of pixels, except now they are further apart and harder to see. Try it!

The main reason you'd want to use a 1:1 view is not to make dots bigger, but to actually FOREGO (mostly) the need for dots!

By making the apparent size of distant aircraft as close to reality as possible, they disappear at the appropriate distance, meaning that dots are no longer necessary.

Remember, dots are artificial rendering modifications introduced by 1C to make spotting aircraft at long distances possible at larger fovs (70/90) - to simulate a real pilot's spotting ability.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

most FPS's are user altered to run @ 90 deg FoV and in those games running a high FoV is considered a cheat... altering the Fov for zoom, is to "assume" a zoom bearing in mind the technical limitations of monitors.

Cheat is a relative term and I don't want to discuss that. Let's put it this way - if a modification provides an advantage to a small number of players (which wider fovs in FPS's do) in a competitive environment and it is not officially sanctioned for whatever reason, it is a cheat. It could STILL be realistic you know - but be considered a cheat.

In IL2 CLoD, the difference is that fov facilities are provided and officially sanctioned so its not a cheat.

When it comes to zoom in games though, FOV is what is used to zoom the view by developers, whether we are talking about binoculars, telescopes etc. Thats just a fact

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Field of View is associated with magnification, however they are not same thing, as you claimed earlier.

I know its hard to admit, but what I said was true. Let's go back to what I said;

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

While being as uncondescending as possible, I suggest you review your understanding of what FOV is, how it and binoculars work and what they have in common.

Let's just say that both 'zoom' by taking a small angle of our field of view and re-focussing it to take a larger portion of that field of view.

Small FOV's do this by rendering only a small part of the ingame view and having it cover the full viewing plane/monitor, which would normally display a much wider view.

Binoculars do this by taking light from a small part of our field of view and realigning and refocussing it to take a larger portion of our retina.

The principle however, in both cases, is the same. And perhaps once you understand why, you will grasp why FOV needs to match the field of view taken by your monitor in order to present a 1:1 view.

Then maybe you can end your insistence on 60 being the 'perfect' fov and opposition to the practice of switching between FOV's and realise that, like all viewing technologies, FOV is a compromise compared to our real world visual acuity. We don't do it to make the 'dots bigger' (it actually makes them smaller relative to everything else and much harder to spot) but in order to prevent things becoming dots in the first place and to see everything more clearly like it would appear in real life.

As you can see, what I said was true - the way 'FOV' in games is used to magnify and the way angle of view in binoculars is used to magnify works on the same principles.

What you've said, by contrast, is things like this;

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

FoV doesn't zoom... binoculars do though, bringing an element of higher level flying difficulty (realistic) with them as well as tracking (re-aquiring).

Which is just completely wrong - FOV is USED to create 'binoculars' in games!


By the way, FOV is very dependent on how far you sit from your monitor and how big it is, and we are by no means helpless as players when it comes to improving our visual acuity. Remember this formula?

FOV = ((((screenwidth/viewer distance)/2)tan-1)2)

Depending on how large your monitor is and particularly how close you sit to your monitor, the 1:1 (or 'optically correct' according to valve) FOV changes a lot!

Lets use my own monitor as an example. My monitor is a 22" CRT that is 41 cm wide on its viewable area (thats screenwidth). So let's see what my 1:1 (ie, optically correct FOV where objects appear roughly as large in terms of apparent size/angular size as in reality) is for various viewing distances:

1 metre - 1:1 FOV = 23 degrees
90 cm - 1:1 FOV = 25 degrees
80 cm - 1:1 FOV = 28 degrees
70 cm - 1:1 FOV = 32 degrees
60 cm - 1:1 FOV = 37 degrees
50 cm - 1:1 FOV = 44 degrees
40 cm - 1:1 FOV = 54 degrees
30 cm - 1:1 FOV = 68 degrees
20 cm - 1:1 FOV = 91 degrees

Notice the fov's I have highlighted. These are the distances at which the relevant FOV appears as near to reality as possible given my existing monitor. If I sit 80cm away, then at 30 fov objects appear roughly as large (and thus easy to spot) as in reality. If I sit 30 cm away, then at 70 fov objects appear roughly as large as in reality. If I sit at an eye-crushing 20cm, then at 90 fov objects appear roughly as large as in reality. Note that 'dots' are more visible at 70/90 fov, and if I sit very close, spotting them will probably be too easy. Notice also how much the 1:1 FOV changes based on just viewing distance! A larger monitor would also have a big effect.

Now remember - 1:1 FOV is the FOV setting at which individual objects on the screen APPEAR ROUGHLY AS LARGE TO OUR EYE AS IN REALITY. Anytime I go BELOW the 1:1 FOV for any given setting - for example, if I am sitting 50 cm away from the monitor and switch to 30 FOV - I am actually MAGNIFYING objects compared to reality, and making more detail visible than a real pilot could see!

So yes, its very possible to gain a large advantage over other players just by moving closer to your monitor, let alone using a larger monitor! And this is not just about 30 FOV - its the same for ANY fov setting - just by moving closer, my 'dots' are indeed getting bigger Are you going to stop moving closer to your monitor when you fly online? Would you like to prevent others from doing the same?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Ok tell me you're just being an ass now!

now you're just being plain rude (I'll bet you vote Labor too )

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

But seriously, the dots get harder to see at smaller fovs because of the way they work - they remain the same size in terms of pixels, except now they are further apart and harder to see. Try it!

not according to what you said here

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

In other words, every time I switch to 30 fov in IL2 CLoD, its as if I was using what most games call 'binoculars' - it's the same zoomed in view and all it is missing is the black outline texture

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

The main reason you'd want to use a 1:1 view is not to make dots bigger, but to actually FOREGO (mostly) the need for dots!

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

But seriously, the dots get harder to see at smaller fovs because of the way they work - they remain the same size in terms of pixels, except now they are further apart and harder to see. Try it!

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

In other words, every time I switch to 30 fov in IL2 CLoD, its as if I was using what most games call 'binoculars' - it's the same zoomed in view and all it is missing is the black outline texture

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

By making the apparent size of distant aircraft as close to reality as possible, they disappear at the appropriate distance, meaning that dots are no longer necessary.

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Remember, dots are artificial rendering modifications introduced by 1C to make spotting aircraft at long distances possible at larger fovs (70/90) - to simulate a real pilot's spotting ability.

with regard to the limits of current monitor technology and keeping in with the realism

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Cheat is a relative term and I don't want to discuss that. Let's put it this way - if a modification provides an advantage to a small number of players (which wider fovs in FPS's do) in a competitive environment and it is not officially sanctioned for whatever reason, it is a cheat. It could STILL be realistic you know - but be considered a cheat.

In IL2 CLoD, the difference is that fov facilities are provided and officially sanctioned so its not a cheat.

go wider with FPS and narrower with combat flight sims... if its sounds like and walks like, a duck ~

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

When it comes to zoom in games though, FOV is what is used to zoom the view by developers, whether we are talking about binoculars, telescopes etc. Thats just a fact

because of the limitions of computer gaming/ monitors... notice how pupil exit size isn't taken into account

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

I know its hard to admit, but what I said was true. Let's go back to what I said;


As you can see, what I said was true - the way 'FOV' in games is used to magnify and the way angle of view in binoculars is used to magnify works on the same principles.

What you've said, by contrast, is things like this;


Which is just completely wrong - FOV is USED to create 'binoculars' in games!

FoV is associated with magnification... it is not, however the same thing

Look down a tube with one eye, what happens?






*and an edit for the incessant edits...

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

So yes, its very possible to gain a large advantage over other players just by moving closer to your monitor, let alone using a larger monitor! And this is not just about 30 FOV - its the same for ANY fov setting - just by moving closer, my 'dots' are indeed getting bigger Are you going to stop moving closer to your monitor when you fly online? Would you like to prevent others from doing the same?

by physically moving closer to the monitor, the dots are getting bigger?
Slightly bigger yes, but in reality all that is achieved is a clearer definition and perhaps eye damage.

and "let alone using a larger monitor"? well that is part of your problem right there (which was taken care of by the developers regarding using real big monitors as a cheat; as in an unfair advantage online)

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

now you're just being plain rude (I'll bet you vote Labor too )

Well you were being an ass, weren't you? You know dots get smaller with lower fovs but you still insist on saying it. I'm not talking about your intellectual capacity (though I have my doubts given you still don't get it after 10 pages) and political choices, they are your own concern - I am simply describing how you are choosing to behave (like an ass).

Btw, I don't vote Labour. Stereotypes ey!

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

FoV is associated with magnification... it is not, however the same thing

Look down a tube with one eye, what happens?

You do realise your Field of View does not change when you look down a tube with one eye right? Most of it is simply filled by the tube

It's important to seperate what you see with what is happening.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

with regard to the limits of current monitor technology and keeping in with the realism

Lol what you think they are magic? They are just a bunch of pixels that don't even account for FOV! They don't magically give you the most realistic spotting experience you can get.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

because of the limitions of computer gaming/ monitors... notice how pupil exit size isn't taken into account

Garbage. FOV is a rendering property and has nothing to do with the limitations of computer gaming and monitors. The CHOICE of FOV does - but not FOV itself.

If everybody suddenly had wraparound monitors, games could suddenly use much wider fovs. But they would still need to use FOV to zoom in.

Remember also that FOV doesnt have to be all or nothing. Modern games can have a general view with one fov and a display within that (like say a sniper scope) that actually renders part of the scene at a different FOV. But FOV is what is being used, period.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

go wider with FPS and narrower with combat flight sims... if its sounds like and walks like, a duck ~

In case we ever doubted you are a grating, unpleasant personality that looks for people to blame, you make it clear once more. You must have a very bitter life.

Are you not doing well online? Feel the need to blame the game's sanctioning for fov changes? Well thats too bad. 1C officially sanctions it so its not a cheat. It also happens to make dots harder to spot although it is very useful in other ways, and widely used.

Anyway, I thought you were against whining? What makes you different?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

not according to what you said here

You're a bit slow aren't you

Let me repeat once more. In practice and my testing, the dots are actually harder to spot in 30 fov. Try it. You'll see

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Having just done a bit more flying and switching between 70 and 30 fov, it is actually EASIER to spot dots in 70 fov, in some cases, than 30.

So the concerns of wolf and ilk are completely misplaced. Zoomed fov can actually make spotting aircraft more difficult, although double checking on the nature of a dot/contact is much easier.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

by physically moving closer to the monitor, the dots are getting bigger?

Of course!

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Slightly bigger yes, but in reality all that is achieved is a clearer definition and perhaps eye damage.

No, MUCH bigger! At least 4 times larger. That is also what 'clearer definition' means - each pixel on the monitor is much larger, and occupies more space on your retina, so it is much easier to tell them apart (and the details they represent).

I agree on the eye damage though. Never said it was practical - just possible.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

and "let alone using a larger monitor"? well that is part of your problem right there (which was taken care of by the developers regarding using real big monitors as a cheat; as in an unfair advantage online)

Aren't you using a 22" CRT also?

A larger monitor can, in the strictest sense of the word, be an unfair advantage. If there were an IL2 professional tournament (in like a tournament hall or something), things like this would need be standardised.

But I am not against people using larger monitors of course! A larger monitor is nicer to look at and covers more of your field of view (while still sitting a decent distance from it) which is ultimately more realistic and comfortable.

As for the developers addressing this. I don't know what you are talking about - but I reckon the developers should have no business telling people what monitors to use online. If I had a wraparound, 360 degree view monitor handy, i'd want Cliffs of Dover to support it no matter what certain online knobs thought about it.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

We don't do it to make the 'dots bigger' (it actually makes them smaller relative to everything else and much harder to spot) but in order to prevent things becoming dots in the first place and to see everything more clearly like it would appear in real life.

which translates as "make the dots bigger"

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Zoomed fov can actually make spotting aircraft more difficult, although double checking on the nature of a dot/contact is much easier.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

which translates as "make the dots bigger"

Boy, you really didn't do well in school, did you? I bet corporal punishment was banned when you were a kid. Too bad.

The dots ONLY means the high contrast pixels that appear instead of aircraft at long distances.

And those don't get any bigger. Go on. Try it and prove me wrong!

IF it looks like an ass, smells like an ass and talks like an ass..


Anyway, you've had your fair chance. You want to stay ignorant? Your choice.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

As for the developers addressing this. I don't know what you are talking about - but I reckon the developers should have no business telling people what monitors to use online. If I had a wraparound, 360 degree view monitor handy, i'd want Cliffs of Dover to support it no matter what certain online knobs thought about it.

5. The resolution of detials and LODs is way higher than in lL-2. How far we we will see the type of the object... I can't say right now. All will depends of the all final resource-eaters....
In Il-2 once we did halfransparent dot for the groun objects that to make some ability to see it from longer distance... howver users dislike this system and preffered to go back as it was.
It isn't definitiopn of the LOD only. It is definition of the screen resolution, and power of a system on which we will run BoB in fuuture in a middle settings.
Also due to online gamplay we will need to make it absolutely identical to medium system for the fair gameplay. Its a rule... Or the player with more power PC and greate resolution of the monitor you would be named as a cheater.... We already have great experience in that and many items of gameplay when we need to go for some middle level of details on middle to high power game machines...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6909

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Boy, you really didn't do well in school, did you? I bet corporal punishment was banned when you were a kid. Too bad.

The dots ONLY means the high contrast pixels that appear instead of aircraft at long distances.

And those don't get any bigger. Go on. Try it and prove me wrong!

IF it looks like an ass, smells like an ass and talks like an ass..


Anyway, you've had your fair chance. You want to stay ignorant? Your choice.

wot?? and no three minute warning? spin it around all you want....

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

We don't do it to make the 'dots bigger' (it actually makes them smaller relative to everything else and much harder to spot) but in order to prevent things becoming dots in the first place and to see everything more clearly like it would appear in real life.

which translates as "make the dots bigger"

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Zoomed fov can actually make spotting aircraft more difficult, although double checking on the nature of a dot/contact is much easier.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6909

Clearly you just don't understand any of this topic. I expect you are intellectually challenged. Still, I'll post a clarification;

5. The resolution of detials and LODs is way higher than in lL-2. How far we we will see the type of the object... I can't say right now. All will depends of the all final resource-eaters....

He is talking about rendering distances for LODs and objects. Mostly ground objects, as aircraft are already rendered very far out or as dots.

In Il-2 once we did halfransparent dot for the groun objects that to make some ability to see it from longer distance... howver users dislike this system and preffered to go back as it was.

Again, talking about ground objects. Aircraft already have the system in place.

It isn't definitiopn of the LOD only. It is definition of the screen resolution, and power of a system on which we will run BoB in fuuture in a middle settings.

The decision on how far to render ground objects also depends on performance and FPS hit on middle range systems and how far these objects can be seen comes down to factors other than LOD (including screen resolution).

Also due to online gamplay we will need to make it absolutely identical to medium system for the fair gameplay.

Given the last point, you can't have a LOD system that is switched off on medium systems and does not render objects at long distance, but does on high end systems because of fair gameplay. This is about FPS and performance hits, not spotting and dots.

Its a rule... Or the player with more power PC and greate resolution of the monitor you would be named as a cheater....

Justifying the position above, medium system players should be able to have access to the same LOD rendering system for ground objects as power users and any ground object dot system should scale across resolutions to ensure fair gameplay and to prevent the community turning on players using powerful pc's. This is all meant to justify why the developers are taking their time developing a lod system for ground objects.

We already have great experience in that and many items of gameplay when we need to go for some middle level of details on middle to high power game machines...

They like the way dots and other aspects of the graphics and gameplay systems are consistent across low spec and high spec PC's and intend to continue to develop in this way.

Note that they do not say anything about large monitors or aircraft dots.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

wot?? and no three minute warning? spin it around all you want....

How old are you?

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Note that they do not say anything about large monitors or aircraft dots.

keep up the denigrations, son...
and according to you, I would be 7. what's your next one, perhaps something about special needs?

5) will you correct and improve the "distant object visibility" problem we currently have in il2 ? ie seeing distant LoD models correctly as you would see the the same object (plane/truck/tank) from the same distance with the naked eye in real life
- this is not a problem in il2 when you look at a distant aircraft against the open sky because it is a black (or dark grey) object that is seen against a uniform light blue sky background, but there is a MAJOR problem looking for a small LoD model against the textures of the terrain background, it blends in to much.
- for ex right now in il2 when you fly your aircraft at 1500 meters altitude and you look down to scan the ground for objects, you can not see/locate/track an enemy truck or tank that is standing in an open field or is located on an open road (as you can in real life see it, and historical ww2 pilot reports available), but instead in il2 you need to fly at 500 meters altitude to be able to see it (using the 30 FoV zoom function is not the solution, because it creates tunnel vision and you can only scan a very small narrow part of the ground at a time, and loosing all your peripheral vision it makes you very vulnerable to fly like that). this is because the il2 LoD model blends in to much with the terrain textures (with pc grafix it is a flat 2 dimensional LoD model blending in with the colors of the flat 2 dimensional terrain textures, but in real life it is a 3 dimensional solid object that stands out much more)
- will you compensate for this pc grafix problem in BoB and make distant LoD models stand out more so they are correctly visible ? you mentioned we will have more LoD models in BoB, instead of the 3 currently used in il2, but i am asking about making the LoD model stand out more so it is correctly visible and we can see those objects like tank/truck/planes from the exact same distance as we can see them in real life !

was the question to which O.M. responded... "greater resolution" is in reference to larger monitors (you needed to be there at the time

Originally Posted by irR4tiOn4L

Remember also that FOV doesnt have to be all or nothing. Modern games can have a general view with one fov and a display within that (like say a sniper scope) ~

Which I suggested before, along with a penalty for in cockpit binocular use. Penalty being one hand off the stick or off the throttle (adding an exit pupil penalty as well) coded in.