Curious...Why is this game so hard to get right?

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by jf1981

Hey AM you're not mixing up IAS with TAS righht ?
If you can reach 315 mph TAS at rated alt it does'nt mean you'll reach that TAS at ground level (woud be close rom IAS then).

Either way, the climb rate vs the 109 is garbage. Whether it's accurate or not, it makes for a *horrible* gaming experience.

There are certain games where it's fun no matter what, even if there is no reward for losing, imo...for example GTA 4, crazy stuff happens and whether you die, lose the match, lose the objective, it's still fun to watch...Team Fortress 2, it's hilariously funny when you die, they make it an experience with nemesis, snapshots, funny death animations and sounds. I've grown out of these games, and yes, I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges, but the concept of entertainment is still valid.

In CloD, when you get pilot killed from the first round out of that 109's machine gun that you just watched pull away from you, skyrocket into almost vertical climb and Immelmann back (all starting from a co-alt contact engagement) with equal energy as you...after 25 minutes of climbing to 18,000ft, flight navigation and sweeping the channel, and planning with teammates...it's not fun. Correction, it's decent fun when you do all that stuff and it happens a couple times a day, but ask any Red pilot, it happens at least 10 times a day. To everyone. Frustration takes over and it goes from "oh he got me that time" to "OK, what am I doing wrong" to "HOW IS THIS A SIMULATION PEOPLE PAID FOR?!?!" I've been a witness to this frustration first-hand and watched even the most solemn and skilled players in the last two days lose their cool.

/rant

[Warhound]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Correction, it's decent fun when you do all that stuff and it happens a couple times a day, but ask any Red pilot, it happens at least 10 times a day.

To me this is not true.
I've flow red alot and yes 109's are faster and outclimb you, but that doesn't mean they get an automatic kill.
Just keep an eye on him, without trying to follow him up.
Stay level or in a shallow climb and wait for him to come down again, then turn into him and force him to turn or go back up.
Just keep doing this untill he loses patience and/or makes a mistake.
Often they'll even stall and spin out at the top of their hammerhead and hand you the advantage on a platter.

Without being an ace pilot (which I certainly am not!) you can even keep 2 109's occupied in this way, spiralling down while dragging them along and giving your teammates a perfect opportunity to attack em.
And yes some will decide it's not worth it when you start throwing lead their way and run off...but that's just fine.
Fly away while keeping an eye on them and look for the next, easier target.

Flying like this I always end up with a higher kills than deaths ratio.
Rarely get PK'd, except by one certain 109 pilot who hasn't been online in weeks. More often than not the plane will be falling apart while I'm still alive.
I know many red pilots complain these days, but I just can't agree with them.. especially now red got 100oct planes that are faster than before.
They seem to want the old days of total spit IIa superioirty back but that's just not going to happen, nor was it historical.

[camber]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I think the difficulty comes from modeling a system of factors that influence a set of values, instead of modeling the set of values directly. If we were to simply have X top speed and Y service ceiling, things would be very easy. What we have however is the set of equations that govern these values.

Nicely written post blackdog...I was framing the same argument myself (I do process computer simulations) but I like your way of putting it. I suspect that the way they have coded FMs makes it hard to acheive a set of historical specs even when they know what they are.

Its not an IAS/TAS issue, Spits on +12psi make around 315mph at SL according to the RAE historical record. The original CloD Spit II (which could make 320mph at SL) was about right, except the 109s were slow on the deck so it was unfair.

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

In CloD, when you get pilot killed from the first round out of that 109's machine gun that you just watched pull away from you, skyrocket into almost vertical climb and Immelmann back (all starting from a co-alt contact engagement) with equal energy as you...after 25 minutes of climbing to 18,000ft, flight navigation and sweeping the channel, and planning with teammates...it's not fun.

Originally Posted by Warhound

To me this is not true.
I've flow red alot and yes 109's are faster and outclimb you, but that doesn't mean they get an automatic kill.
Just keep an eye on him, without trying to follow him up.
Stay level or in a shallow climb and wait for him to come down again, then turn into him and force him to turn or go back up.
Just keep doing this untill he loses patience and/or makes a mistake.
Often they'll even stall and spin out at the top of their hammerhead and hand you the advantage on a platter.

It is a bit discouraging that a "professional" 109 pilot is fairly unbeatable unless he chooses to make mistakes..I have have had plenty of engagements like AbortedMan, I position for bounce, 109 sees me and turns away, uses superior speed to avoid me getting into guns range, uses climb to get above, then starts the immelman cycle. I can maybe defeat many passes, but will never get a guns position. Either he will damage me, or another aircraft will join and tip the balance either way. Lucky there is always a few 109s that will lose their cool, or will not see you in time There is of course that special 109 pilot who has never missed me in a full deflection shot, and never failed to cripple my plane or kill me with the first shot. Fully 4-5 times more effective than any other 109 pilot I have encountered

I think there is sufficient wiggle room within historically known performance to make 1v1s rewarding for both. You always get a lot of people yelling once you suggest addressing game "balance" but what do you do once within historical range and you must precisely specify the performance? Throw the dice?

camber

[kendo65]

Warhound
What you describe as the current situation doesn't sound anything like I've read in any 'historical' account of the BoB either.

In fact, if that is the current situation online then it sounds like a total travesty of reality, with people 'gaming' the game.

Fair enough if that's what floats your boat and an understandable (unavoidable even) strategy for the 'competitively minded', online player if the FMs aren't accurate enough to make more reality-based tactics worthwhile.

I suppose my perspective (on combat flight sims) has always been about being able to recreate history as truthfully and accurately as possible, so the above account of what the game is like now doesn't sit well with me. In fact what is the point of finely modelled aircraft systems and detailed cockpits if the aircraft performance is a parody of the real thing?

I know people will say that it is work in progress, and there is truth to that, but it has been WIP for a long time now and progress on this (and many other fronts) is painfully slow. I suppose I've been on the verge of just writing this whole thing off for some time now. There is a point where you need to conclude that what you had looked forward to for so long just isn't going to be realised.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by kendo65

In fact, if that is the current situation online then it sounds like a total travesty of reality, with people 'gaming' the game.

You mean everyones an Ace? There not gaming the game, there flying their aircraft at what it does best. Thats what pilots are supposed to do when their not terrorfied or inexperienced. Thats one of the problems with online flying, nearly everyone is an Ace. Its the pinicle of top fighter vs top fighter.

Can you imagine if people only had 10 hours flight training like some BoB British pilots?

[notafinger!]

In regards to OP I believe this dev team simply has no passion or interest in the Battle of Britain. It shows in the amount of glaring omissions and errors that have continued since day one and continue to go uncorrected despite overwhelming evidence presented by the community. Hopefully, an East front based sequel will be different.

[5./JG27.Farber]

I kind of agree, they dont seem to have research the aircraft included to well.

[Madfish]

*facepalm*

Just unbelievable...

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I kind of agree, they dont seem to have research the aircraft included to well.

I don't know about the German a/c but for the British a/c they have reams of documentation supplied by a member on this board.

[phoenix1963]

I think if you add Blackdog's excellent post to B6's extraordinarily honest comment:

Originally Posted by BlackSix

We can't find a free programmers with knowledge of aviation in the Russian labor market. This is a very big problem.
Also, we lost a lot of employees from the old team.

... I think you get the answer.

I've worked modelling supersonic flow for nearly 40 years and people who can program well and understand the physics are fairly rare. Remember, Oleg's history: he came out of the military aircraft sector at the end of the Cold War and started il2 (after a porno tetris game - unless I've got that wrong).

Which, despite all our frustrations, is why the moaners will only help destroy ww2 simulation. The market is small, the skills needed are rare, in demand and fairly expensive.

I think, though, that a comment like this earlier from B6 would have earned some sympathy from many here.

56RAF_phoenix