Is anyone level bombing in the HE-111?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by jimbop

Is anyone successfully level bombing in the HE-111? I am having what I think is a peculiar problem although please correct me if this is a feature rather than a bug.

When I select a single bomb in the salvo I actually have two drop from the aircraft: once when the automated sight reaches the horizontal bar (at 270 degrees) and another at the bottom. I initially thought the sight was just way out of altitude alignment since I only noticed the second impact. Got puzzled about the missing bomb, though!

Is this normal behaviour?

Anyway, the first is pretty much on target but the second release is miles off. See the below vid for my final run. I have 8 x 250 lb loaded and did not correct for altitude (i.e. how far above sea level the target position was). This would easily account for the relatively small miss on the first release:

(Use desktop browser to see the annotations and 1080 to see the dials if you feel like the wait.)

Thanks to Blackdog_kt's post in this thread for getting me this far and note that there are threads addressing HE-111 bugs here at ATAG and here at 1C.

The "bombsite automation" if left on will do what your experiencing.










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[jimbop]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

The bombsite automation if left on will clear the bomb racks at the bottom of the sight.

Yes but is that a bug or as it was IRL? If not a bug then we really need some indication of when the bombsight have left the bay so it can be turned off safely.

I use the same technique as you regarding speed and altitude, justme262, and consistently hit short. Very annoying! Delay is distance between each bomb AFAIK.

[Heinz Laube]

delay is impact distance between 2 bombs on the ground in meters, right...

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Originally Posted by II./JG27_Winter

delay is impact distance between 2 bombs on the ground in meters, right...

Thats how it works in the 88(series-delay), it should be the same.

[Blackdog_kt]

I've been browsing the linked thread on ATAG as well.

General observations and notes:

1) I tried the 111P some time ago, when Bliss wanted volunteers to test the mission on ATAG #2 before he moved it to ATAG #1. It seemed like all of its compasses are bugged/reversed: the magnetic on the right cockpit wall was acting all weird but the tooltips were giving a proper reading, the repeater was not aligned with the magnetic and everything was backwards.

Now it was late and i was a bit sleepy, but i think i wasn't imagining things. Can anyone confirm this? Maybe it's just me and i have a corrupt file or something, in which case i will do a file validation through Steam.

2) Last time i tried it, the bombsight tracks correctly for the correct TAS and altitude, but it's true that it drops a bit short. I don't know the effect of the workarounds you guys use because i haven't tried them.

As mentioned in the ATAG forum's thread that's linked in the OP, keep in mind that altitude and speed are interconnected in regards to the effects they have on a bomb drop: you can fool the bombsight into a correct drop by using incorrect values if you have the right combination and that's probably what Keller is doing.

In that sense, it might be better to use actual values for altitude and tweaked values for TAS, because the speed scale is bigger: to bomb from higher altitudes you'll run out of available altitude settings on the bombsight, so it's probably better to tweak the speed.

If what jimbop says in the ATAG thread is true (that they have mixed up imperial and metric units in the sights), then maybe the solution is much simpler: just convert kmh to mph and use that value.
One question on this though: do you use mph IAS or mph TAS?

I would test everything right now but i have an exam tomorrow morning. If you guys can help out so we can come up with a complete checklist, we won't only be able to bomb accurately but also pinpoint what the bug is.

Thanks for the help thus far and keep up the good work

P.S. For some reason i find the course AP harder to work with than in the 110. Maybe it's because the 111 is slower to respond to control inputs. Can you guys confirm that a 5-7 degree offset between directional gyro and selected heading is needed to keep it level when engaging the AP?

Another Edit: There's are carat-shaped markers on the bombsight reticule that tell you when the drop occurs. These are blurry on my screen because my low RAM doesn't let me load the full size textures (even when set on medium), but still visible. These were present in IL2 as well and worked the same.

I think i remember how it works, feel free to test and confirm if it holds true in CoD.

So, open jimbop's video here, pause immediately and go to a high enough resolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ZO3vszC0#t=18s

The double triangle marker (one solid yellow and the other just outlined) you see next to the outer curved scale is moved around by changing the bombsight angle. Essentially it's the distance to target,calculated correctly when the correct altitude is set. Essentially the sight does trigonometry for you, it knows the angle at which it is pointing and your distance above ground, so it calculates the horizontal distance.

There should be another single, solid triangle marker visible at the bottom of the scale marking how far away from the target you need to release to get a hit. This is also calculated based on your altitude and speed.

When your distance from the target matches the required distance to release, the bombsight drops. You'll see now that when engaging automation, the double triangle marker starts to move down the scale, showing how the distance to target decreases (assuming the sight is well calibrated and tracks correctly). When it coincides with the single triangle marker, that's when your bombs release.

You can also use this knowledge to do partial drops. If you manually track a target by moving the bombsight angle down as you get nearer to it, the double marker will also move down. When it coincides with the single marker you can drop a couple of eggs, then do the same for another target further on down. Not very useful for carpet bombing and certainly not until we iron out the kinks in how to work the bombsights accurately, but if we get there you could for example drop a pair of 250s on one hangar and another pair on another hangar at the other end of the field.

Hope it helps

I don't know how much of this is accurate for CoD, but that's pretty much how it used to work.

[jimbop]

Thanks for the info, Blackdog_kt. I'll have a closer look at the sight triangles later. For the 'fix' mentioned on ATAG I use IAS rather than TAS. I hope they fix the release timing in the next patch but I don't even know if they are aware of it.

[nadasero]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I've been browsing the linked thread on ATAG as well.

General observations and notes:

1) I tried the 111P some time ago, when Bliss wanted volunteers to test the mission on ATAG #2 before he moved it to ATAG #1. It seemed like all of its compasses are bugged/reversed: the magnetic on the right cockpit wall was acting all weird but the tooltips were giving a proper reading, the repeater was not aligned with the magnetic and everything was backwards.

Now it was late and i was a bit sleepy, but i think i wasn't imagining things. Can anyone confirm this? Maybe it's just me and i have a corrupt file or something, in which case i will do a file validation through Steam.

2) Last time i tried it, the bombsight tracks correctly for the correct TAS and altitude, but it's true that it drops a bit short. I don't know the effect of the workarounds you guys use because i haven't tried them.

...

Hi,

1)
the compasses on the 111P are bugged like you said. The magnetic on the right isn't working at all, the repeater is turning into the wrong direction. The tooltips are correct.

2)
again, the like you said. Everything seems to work, but the drops are short.

I have produced kind of an tutorial-video (in german) how the autopilot and the bombsight this is working.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero.../3/YjKzsuDPuoM

The video is in 1080 so the sight can be seen in HD. I think the marker for the drop-distance is not working correctly. It is not possible to see when the bombs are droped. According to my tests it is when the two triangles are at about 270 degrees (depending on altutude and speed).

The AP is allways a few degrees to the left. If you engage AP centered, it starts to turn left and oszilates for quite a while.

For the drop, I'm using the second stage of the AP. This stage is controling all three axis and keeps the artificial horizon centered. You get a very stable flight, but the plane drops until an IAS of approx. 300km/h is reached. At this speed, the plane keeps altitude and direction very stable and makes targeting easy. It is possible to control elevation with the engines.

In the video, you can also see the folowing problems:
In the bombsight-position, it is hard to read the dials for drop delay. They can only be seen in wide angle. Only 7 lights on the dial for the number of bombs to drop are switched on. There is no indicator and no switch for arming the bombs, so you need a key and listen to the klick-sound to make sure they are armed (this much better solved in the 110).

The 111 is still the best for level bombing because the AP in the Ju88 is not working at all.

[jimbop]

Nice tip nadasero, thanks. I'll give the other mode a go since I usually drop at around 290 IAS anyway. Regarding compass problems I have only paid attention to the tooltip and not always even that since I know the maps well enough to align the target by dead reckoning. I then activate AP with DG (whatever it happens to read I know that it is straight ahead) + 9 degrees. This usually sets me up well enough for the final approach and I can tinker left or right as required.

[Blackdog_kt]

So, mode 1 is for navigating (only turns by ailerons), while mode 2 is for the bomb run (keeps wings level, turns by rudder)?

(I posted the same question in the other thread about the 88 too by the way, then i came here to draw your attention to it and saw nadasero has posted here as well )

I assume that mode 2 autopilot still needs a working gyro compass to set your headings, right?

So, i think we have a rough guide to go by at this point.

Let me also cover a small procedure that's called "getting on the step". As many of you might have noticed, certain aircraft seem to cruise better and faster after a bit of descend and they keep that extra speed without losing altitude.

Let's say we want to cruise at 4000m. It might be faster to climb to 4500m and then descend back down to 4000m and trim level, than just staying at 4km and waiting for speed to increase.

Flying FSX add-ons on a friend's PC i discovered that this is actually a real world procedure that was advised and used in various large aircraft (like the Stratocruiser and the B-17).

So, if we use this for our He-111 too, we'd get something like this:

1) Use the He111H if the reversed compasses on the instrument panel confuse you (like they confuse me )

2) Climb to altitude + 500m (500 might be too much, we'll have to test this out).

3)Descend back to your chosen cruise altitude and trim level.

4)Calibrate your gyrocompass

5) Set desired heading at gyro heading + 9

6) Engage AP mode 2

7) Steer the aircraft left/right via the autopilot to align the target.

8 ) Convert IAS from km/h to mph and enter that value in the bombsight. Enter altitude above ground in the bombsight.

9) Place crosshairs on target and engage bombsight automation.

10) Open bomb bays, arm bombs and wait.

Does this look correct? I'll have to test this out soon

[jimbop]

Blackdog, that is the 'correct' way to do it and I can confirm that AP 2 does work very well. Extremely stable after the initial descent to ~300 KPH so thanks for that, nadasero.

Your step 10 needs a modification: ensure the crosshairs stay on the target by manual adjustment with the Sight Up control. The MPH velocity setting, whilst correct for the RELEASE timing is incorrect for the SIGHT timing. Annoying, to say the least.