When/what should we post in an Oleg Update thread, and when/what we shouldn't

[Triggaaar]

Most of the latest update thread has been polluted by forum members (inc me) discussing what we should and shouldn't say in those threads.

There are experienced members who have seen all the updates, know what questions have been asked before, know IL2 well, and have a good understanding for what is achievable in a modern PC and what is WIP etc. There are also newer members who haven't seen all the updates, don't know what questions have been asked before, and don't have as good an understanding of the technical limitations of our PCs etc.

This leads to repeat questions, and questions that don't always give the respect the developers deserve (as many of us know how good these developers are, and that basic questions could be seen as insulting). These questions then lead to complaints from some members about the appropriateness of the questions, disagreement about whether it's right that any member appoint themselves as Oleg's moderator etc, and then a plea from Oleg that all the forum members stop bickering (which is obviously a bit embarrassing). Despite this plea, we’ve gone on to discuss what we should and shouldn’t write in the update threads, and when I found myself typing another response to the argument (taking the thread further OT), I thought maybe we should discuss it all in a separate thread.
So if you want to discuss the way we ask questions, and what we should and shouldn’t say in an update thread (or if, like engarde, you think that “every Maddox post should be locked”), perhaps you can discuss it here.

[BadAim]

I think this is actually a great idea, to have a discussion about something off topic in one thread in another one, how novel Triggaaar.

Unfortunately I doubt it will do much good, as the trolls will troll, the bitchers will bitch and the self appointed Oleg defenders (like me) will get their panties in a knot over it, then the cycle will repeat itself, ad nauseum.

I suppose we all could try something equally novel and perhaps post only questions and comments on the topic at hand and leave the insults and jousting out.

LOL! I crack myself up! A guy has to dream though.........

[Triggaaar]

I was in the middle of typing in the other thread disagreeing with someone about nothing important, thinking - what am I doing - me posting this is no better than the posts I'm complaining about.

Originally Posted by BadAim

Unfortunately I doubt it will do much good, as the trolls will troll, the bitchers will bitch and the self appointed Oleg defenders (like me) will get their panties in a knot over it, then the cycle will repeat itself, ad nauseum.

Well it's really up to the moderators. I love getting updates from the developers. We're really lucky to have someone explain how the game is being developed, and why, and our opinions on what makes a good sim are really listened to by the developers - that just doesn't ever happen. But 60 pages for an up date thread, most of which is us lot talking nonsense. My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question. That will already make a fairly long thread, but we could do without:
a) complaining about the questions of others, going OT etc - that can either be done in another thread, or via a 'report' to a mod that you think someone's question is inappropriate. Or if a question has been asked before and you really want to make a point, just quote the question and provide a link to the answer.
b) discussion over what should and shouldn't be in the thread. Everyone has an opinion, and if we all give OT opinions in an update thread, the thread is ruined.

I'd like it if mods just removed all other posts from an update thread, just siting the reason (eg, OT - post elsewhere).

I suppose we all could try something equally novel and perhaps post only questions and comments on the topic at hand and leave the insults and jousting out.

LOL! I crack myself up! A guy has to dream though.........

Indeed, that would be good. And since we're into dream land, I think world peace would be lovely.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

I was in the middle of typing in the other thread disagreeing with someone about nothing important, thinking - what am I doing - me posting this is no better than the posts I'm complaining about.
Well it's really up to the moderators. I love getting updates from the developers. We're really lucky to have someone explain how the game is being developed, and why, and our opinions on what makes a good sim are really listened to by the developers - that just doesn't ever happen. But 60 pages for an up date thread, most of which is us lot talking nonsense. My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question. That will already make a fairly long thread, but we could do without:
a) complaining about the questions of others, going OT etc - that can either be done in another thread, or via a 'report' to a mod that you think someone's question is inappropriate. Or if a question has been asked before and you really want to make a point, just quote the question and provide a link to the answer.
b) discussion over what should and shouldn't be in the thread. Everyone has an opinion, and if we all give OT opinions in an update thread, the thread is ruined.

I'd like it if mods just removed all other posts from an update thread, just siting the reason (eg, OT - post elsewhere).

Indeed, that would be good. And since we're into dream land, I think world peace would be lovely.

World peace.......I thought I was a dreamer.

I think for my part, I'll just look up Oleg's responses and quit even reading all the crap, that way I can free up about two hours a day and be much less stressed out to enjoy it.

[KG26_Alpha]

The problem is .............

A lot of forum users see a forum as a place to hurl abuse and troll other members for the sole purpose of starting flame wars and generally disruptive behaviour, they usually have no constructive genuine input or contribution to any threads.

They are easy to spot as they only post negative or critique comments that start other users off on a flaming rampage, or going completely off topic.

Couple that with the fact that a lot of younger generation are a click and "want it want it want it" mindset and have no rational thought of actually thinking about the situation and making a decision for themselves, they will ask inane questions that seem glaringly obvious to a lot of other users because they don't actually have the ability to think for themselves any more (cue Wkipedia/google etc etc).

This leads to the "what's right/wrong" question.

To stop offending comments being posted will be difficult as some users see it as their right to use the forum for that specific reason.

Better administration ?

This is the obvious route to take, we need admins on US/Can & Euro time zones to filter out these offensive off topic posts before they cause damage.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

The problem is .............


Couple that with the fact that a lot of younger generation are a click and "want it want it want it" mindset and have no rational thought of actually thinking about the situation and making a decision for themselves, they will ask inane questions that seem glaringly obvious to a lot of other users because they don't actually have the ability to think for themselves any more (cue Wkipedia/google etc etc).

quoted for truth....

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually i think that as long as discussing the update or certain features (known/unknown/possible/wishlist), anything should be fair game.

Most of the times discussion devolves into point scoring matches between people because they can't accept a different opinion, not because of the points made.

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue. Even long time forum regulars get caught out by this, especially when responding to a comment that was delivered in a rude way. For example, if someone says he thinks the clouds need work another guy might chime in to say they look fine to him, but if the 1st guy says they suck then the 2nd guy is all the more likely to get sucked into an argument that turns personal.

So, to keep it brief:

1) Give your opinion in a polite manner.

2) Accept opinions different to your own as being another member's personal taste and not a case of right or wrong, especially if they are not rude.

3) The most important point of all. Don't get offensive with people you disagree with or who are being rude themselves. If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.

State your opinion but give them the benefit of doubt.
Don't tell a guy he's an internet fascist, tell him he seems to have trouble accepting different opinions.
Don't tell a guy he's blind, tell him that in your personal interpretation that screenshot looks different.
Don't tell a guy he's asking for useless stuff, tell him about the other features you'd be more interested in and aknowledge that all is subject to hardware compromises.

In short, don't assume an air of superiority, don't pretend your opinion somehow values more, don't act like you know it all, don't act like you know what the developers think or consider useful, don't act like the arbiter of what's worthwhile and what's not to post about, don't pretend to represent others (developers or community members) or speak on their behalf and finally, don't pound the other guy's opinion to the ground and get him all defensive and arguing when you can simply state your own view on things

This is how all these circular arguments start. Someone posts something, anything, and before long there is someone else who disagrees but instead of trying to debate the opinion he sets off trying to ridicule the person instead, from which point on it just goes downhill.

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue.

I share these views. Praise, criticism (polite), questions, or links to answers. That's it.

If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.

Actually, I don't think we should allow users trying to put others in their place at all, as it just goes downhill from there (only my opinion). If someone says they hate the clouds, but you love them, just post your praise, eg, "personally Oleg I love the clouds, looks like a typical British storm" etc, and leave it at that.

I agree with many of your ideas about us all trying to not talk as if we're in a better position to comment than others, but I think that's too hard for people to do.

But regardless of the way I'd like to see it done, it would just be good if the moderators made a decision, and put it in a sticky - this is what you can/can't write in an update thread, anything else will be removed. Because the way it is now, there's too much arguing (even if it is only 5%, I see that as too much), and we run the risk of the development team getting so fed up they stop either giving us updates, or allowing any questions.

[kimosabi]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking.

Totally agree. Internet anonymity does strange things to many people.