1C's stance on head-tracking devices for BoB?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

That's understandable and fine really. The difference is that as long as freetrack uses the naturalpoint API, there's not much ground to stand on in order to claim that NP is doing something wrong.

Freetrack also uses it's own api totally independent from NP (freetrack.dll I believe).
The Freetrack API is free to use by anyone. Bohemia Studios are the latest to adopt the freetrack API.

[Blackdog_kt]

Ah, so it exists. That's very nice. Competition makes better products and lowers prices

[MikkOwl]

I would not at all be worried about freetrack and Storm of War. Such a major title needs no special treatment from (comparatively puny) NaturalPoint, rather the opposite.

NaturalPoint tried to make sure (and succeeded) that Freetrack software was made incompatible with the TrackIR hardware. For the consumer (me) that is 100% bad. What can I lose from having more options? Freetrack software has some good stuff (been trying it when helping a friend set up a 'free' tracker to match my TiR5 in IL-2, as we could not go head to head for as long as I had that enormous situational awareness advantage). NaturalPoint need to implement features that are in FreeTrack or let users use Freetrack software. But they have done neither.

Their motive for this (and other things mentioned) I can only speculate on. I think it is that they are trying to prevent people even knowing that any kind of option exists other than buying a TrackIR. Follow this reasoning:

1. Miss Simpilot buys a TrackIR 5 and loves it.

2. Her simmer friends think it's awesome and now want to be able to do the same thing. That 274 dollar cost for a TiR 5 with a CrapClip Pro (I have one and while it delivers great functionality, the durability is atrociously poor, it is disintegrating piece by piece) is expensive.

3. Miss Simpilot had tested an alternative piece of software to control her TrackIR 5 with called Freetrack, and from that she knew that it was actually possible to get head tracking without paying 274 dollars. In fact, a moderately handy person can use parts from around the house costing only a fraction. Yes, performance isn't as instant, smooth and precise as the TiR 5 but at a fraction of the cost it is an agreeable trade-off for many of the expense concerned friends.

_____

I think NaturalPoint want to erase the 3. I wrote above and replace it with this:

3. Miss Simpilot and her friends all think the TiR 5 is awesome but at 274 dollars it is very expensive, and if there was any way around spending this much money for for headset mounted dots and tracking unit hardware they would give it serious thought. However, it seems no other companies offer similar products in any of the online stores they checked. As a result, one third of the friends end up buying the TiR 5 + SnapClip Pro and the others decide that they can't justify that kind of money on gaming periphals.

___

Fortunately a lot of people do know about freetrack alternatives, but not everyone. Certainly not years ago either. Think about the people with less time to spend on googling forums about headtracking options and their friends/coworkers who might know even less.

The whole thing reminds me of how music record companies and gaming companies are trying to force people to give them money to supply a worse product than the freely distributed versions.

[julian265]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

And, does this mean that you can't get freetrack to work in IL-2? I have made some utilities (Multi-Throttle in particular) that use devicelink to connect to IL-2, and I noticed that one of the things one can set through this interface is the headtracking (pitch and yaw, maybe roll as well if using the 6DoF 'versions').

That's good to hear, and what I'd like to see in future games.

BTW freetrack works fine for me in IL2.

[julian265]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

It seems like NaturalPoint have a few exclusivity agreements with publishers.

It does.
from someone from the Eagle Dynamics team (DCS: BS): http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...0&postcount=40
"Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon."

Limit non NP tracking to 3DOF???? This is anti-competitive practise, without doubt.

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Business is tough Untamo, and NaturalPoint uses it's leading position to the full to keep it. But again..resourcefull players have always found a way around obstacles

Business is one thing, this is another. Apart from the above example, I have heard/seen other examples of NP pressuring developers/forums to do things like 'moderate' discussions and exclude other trackers, however I don't have any links. They do have the ability to pressure developers, as a flight sim can only be compatible with TIR if NP says so, and a flight sim that can't work with TIR wouldn't be very popular with TIR owners.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

That's understandable and fine really. The difference is that as long as freetrack uses the naturalpoint API, there's not much ground to stand on in order to claim that NP is doing something wrong. Sure, most of us can make the IR LED clip and find a webcam lying around, but not all of us can code an API.

Absolutely. They can do what they want with their own software. I only have a problem with the suspiciously slow adoption of generic head-tracking inputs by games.

[julian265]

Can we have an official response from 1C? Even an indication of their current thoughts on the matter?

Will I have to be "resourceful" again when BoB comes out? Or will logic prevail, and will 6DoF head movement be controlable by existing generic axis controls, involving no special coding and no mandatory encryption?

Do any 1C members read these posts?

[GF_Mastiff]

Originally Posted by julian265

I raised this question about six months ago, but got no official reply, so here it is again!

What is 1C's stance on head tracking devices? Will BoB accept generic axis inputs for head angle and position, or will BoB ONLY talk to natural point products?

Has this issue been decided yet?

Is it out of Oleg's hands?

I, and a lot of other people who can either not afford, or do not want natural point products will be very disappointed if BoB ignores generic head-tracking inputs, due to what I regard as unethical business practises.

Heres the official stance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoz1Kb2wkPE

[Wolf_Rider]

I can't say I blame NaturalPoint really... the Freetrack looks to be a direct rip off.
NaturalPoint put a lot of hard work into a device which greatly benefits those in the world, who, haven't got the ability to use their arms/ hands (if they have them at all) like those amongst can and have...

[julian265]

Mastiff - sure, BoB can use TIR, but will 1C do the right thing and allow other trackers to communicate head pose?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

I can't say I blame NaturalPoint really... the Freetrack looks to be a direct rip off.
NaturalPoint put a lot of hard work into a device which greatly benefits those of us who haven't got the ability to use their arms/ hands (if they have them at all) like those amongst can and have...

It might look like a rip-off to you, because it does the same thing, but that is like saying that car brand A is a rip-off of car brand B because it has wheels and moves things, the same as A.

The maths behind head tracking has been around for some time, and freetrack's algorithms were developed independently.

The legality issues arose because freetrack communicates to games using NP's protocol, which was done because many games don't accept the usual inputs for head movement, like they do for joysticks and mouses. This is a MINOR part of the software, and doesn't really require anyone particularly smart to do it. In fact, we'd all be better off if they had have just used the same input methods that joysticks use, which would have required no special API at all.

This situation is just like logitech, for example, trying to get games to restrict the inputs of non-logitech joysticks, which is clearly not in the interest of the consumer. There is no arguing this fact, read the linked post from the ED forum - in which ED staff mentioned deals being made with NP, to restrict non NP trackers to 3DoF.

[Untamo]

I wouldn't call it a rip-off, since NP's product is mainly the led lamp camera thingie + cap reflectors. Freetrack offers just the software. One has to build everything else. The NP's product is the saved worktime in a fancy box