What exactly counts as Archers?

[Coin-coin le Canapin]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

No. Technically, a unit cannot move/attack more than 2 times per fight. When you give a troop an extra move/attack/etc. they have the right to do that in the end of the sub-turn (as if you gave the same troop the order to wait the first time), after everyone else had moved.

This makes it impossible to have a troop act more than twice per battle. There is a small exception to the rule when 2 demon/executioner stacks start hacking at each other, as they may go on until one of them is destroyed. Another exception to the rule is the Gorguanas, who have a significant chance to get an extra attack if the stack just scored a killing hit. As such, a gorguana can get a lot of moves in one turn as well (limited by the number of enemy stacks currently on the battlefield).

Hmmm, okay.
Hmmm...

And with this configuration :

zombie
paladin
bowman

bowman plays
paladin makes bowman play again
zombie waits

bowman plays
zombie makes bowman play again

Does this work, or will the zombie play before the bowman even using the wait option?

Hope the question isn't stupid, but I'm not sure to understand your explanation (yeah, my bad english...)

[Akimbo]

Originally Posted by Coin-coin le Canapin

Hmmm, okay.
Hmmm...

And with this configuration :

zombie
paladin
bowman

bowman plays
paladin makes bowman play again
zombie waits

bowman plays
zombie makes bowman play again

Does this work?

edit: On reading your example again I'm not 100% sure...Someone needs to try it, but it does actually look promising.
edit2: No it doesn't work, I was right with the ordering:

Skeleton Archers: attack
Zombies: Pass to Archers, Archers get put to last initiative order
Paladins: Wait, in order to go after the archers, but they get their turn put before the skeleton archer have their second, so no, sadly it doesn't work.

I still havn't tried the Phantom method yet, but I think that'll work out the same, as whoever has their turn "Passed" or "Second Winded" to them, will always move last in that turn, regardless of any methods to get around it.
===========

No, when you "Pass" or use the Paladin's "Second Wind" the unit you use it on automatically get's put at the very end of the initiative line. So to give them a third turn you'd have to somehow get a unit to cast "Pass" or "Second Wind" after the unit has had it's second turn, but with it's second turn being pushed to last place, it's not possible (Only thing I can think of is if Phantom, cast on paladins or zombies would give the phantom unit a turn after the Bowman from your example have had their second turn...)

So it'd be like:

Bowman attack
Zombies "Pass"
Cast Phantom on Zombies.
Bowman attack.
Zombie Phantoms "Pass"

It all comes down to when the Zombie/Paladin Phantoms got their turn. I used zombies in the example because their initiative is awful, so if it has anything to do with who goes first, the zombie phantoms would be relegated to moving after the Bowman.

[DGDobrev]

It doesn't work like this.

If zombie waits, it will get its turn on the sub-turn before the bowman has moved, and so, you won't be able to use it twice. However, if you have 2 archer-type, you can use both of them in the same turn

On the other hand, mini-phantom can work.

[Akimbo]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

On the other hand, mini-phantom can work.

I'm not 100% sure if the phantom moves last, or before the Archer unit gets its second turn though. I didn't try that yet

[DGDobrev]

Yeah, I'm uncertain as well... That was a supposition, but come to think of it, it may not work... Guess we have to test it first

I've been thinking about an archer party for quite a while... I guess I may as well do one. The main thing I'm still pondering about is should I go for Trigger and its built-in archer crit or for Telescopic + Ale barrel (that gives +100% base attack to all archers in addition to a nice crit bonus), because unless I pick a mage, I can't go for both (I need 2 artifact slots for those, and with warrior/paladin + trigger I have only 1)...

It would require some further planning I guess.

[Akimbo]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

Yeah, I'm uncertain as well... That was a supposition, but come to think of it, it may not work... Guess we have to test it first

I've been thinking about an archer party for quite a while... I guess I may as well do one. The main thing I'm still pondering about is should I go for Trigger and its built-in archer crit or for Telescopic + Ale barrel (that gives +100% base attack to all archers in addition to a nice crit bonus), because unless I pick a mage, I can't go for both (I need 2 artifact slots for those, and with warrior/paladin + trigger I have only 1)...

It would require some further planning I guess.

Yeah I'm playing a warrior at the moment and was considering Trigger, but I need the slots Moro Dark supplies for the items I have at the moment.

On Moro:

Elven Bow
Elven Crown
Marshal's Baton
Dragon Cloak

On Me:

Elven Crown
Marshal's Baton
Axe of Lightning
Bow of Skill
Slippery Cuirass
Protective Bracelets
Pilgrims Boots
Dragon Chain

I could actually put in the Telescopic sight instead of the Dragon Chain, as I did find one of those. I also have the Barrel, but no Artifact slot to use it in It adds +100% attack, but that's to the base, not modified value I think, so not much use for skele archers. Nice boost to Elven Archers and Hunters though. The crit bonus from Trigger is nice (more so because it applies to a wide range of troops) but as you said, unless you're playing a Mage, you won't have enough slots for Artifacts (Though the Orc Armour Bearer has one I think). I wish I'd started my game as a Mage and found those items now

The Phantom method doesn't work either by the way, so it's impossible to give a single unit 3 turns in one go. It's perfectly possible to give 3 Archer units 2 turns each in one turn though.

As a mage I suppose you could keep up 2xPhantoms every turn since you only need to cast the level 1 version of the spell to get the extra-action skills. The number of troops in the phantom unit doesn't matter. Or cast Mass Precision for 6 Archer attacks all with +40% damage in the first turn...Why oh why don't I have a mage yet. New run through for me soon I guess hehe.

By the way my army for testing was:

Zombies
Paladins
Hunters
Elf Archers
Skeleton Archers

It's also worth noting that the Paladins Second Wind, doesn't work on Undead, so remember to Pass to them with the zombies and phantom the Paladins to Second Wind both Elf units

On a side note I've not found any better gloves (Those are +1 defense +50 leadership) or boots (+1 speed to slowest troops) what do people usually end up using for those slots.

[DGDobrev]

Not bad at all! Right now I must confess that I'm abusing the save game scanner in order to get a favorable start. By that I mean at least a few Elves and Hunters easily accessible (preferaly not in castle Telion/Anorion, as they are protected), telescopic sight, yew bow, dagger of judgment, belt of luck, maybe elven bow... Kinda hard to get it, but we'll see

It will be fun to get a game with critting archers.

EDIT: BTW, in about 5 out of my 15 attempts, there were no hunters or elves at all in the game. That's a disturbing percentage... The scanner sure helps when you want something specific from the game.

[travelingoz]

All you need is 1 stack of paladins and 1 stack of zombies and you can get 3 turns. Like this:-

Archers attack.
Paladins attack.
Cast phantom on paladins or zombies stack.
Next unit to act (either phantom or zombie) cast 2nd wind on archers.
Then next unit to act casts 2nd wind on original Paladin stack.
Archers take 2nd turn to attack.
Original Paladin stack casts 2nd(3rd?) wind on archers.
Bingo!

At least in theory anyway! It's 2 am here and i'm going to bed.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by DGDobrev

EDIT: I checked the russian guide in an attempt to bring some clarity to the discussion here

If we're talking about Trigger, these are the units he affects:
Skeleton Archer, Archer, Cannoneer, Catapult Goblin, Elf, Hunter, Goblin, Royal Thorn, Thorn Hunter, Alchemist, Repair Droid, Cyclops, Beholder, Evil eyes.

If we're talking about Self-loading crossbow/Arbator it affects:
Skeleton Archer, Archer, Elf, Hunter

If we're talking about the Telescopic sight, these are the units it affects:
Skeleton Archer, Archer, Cannoneer, Catapult Goblin, Elf, Hunter, Goblin.

Well, that's just insane. Someone needs to be shot (with an arrow) for grouping those abilities like that. I mean, they all use the same language... but have different targets.

[DGDobrev]

Well, it would really help if the abilities were segmented, I grant that. Most of the items that affect ranged units, when "combined" with the description of the unit can lead to pretty misleading conclusions.

If you want, I can try to isolate the items that affect the ranged units and provide some info about which troops they affect.