Bomber boys - bbc one

[robtek]

[QUOTE=bongodriver;393432]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..you should seriously consider changing your nickname to "word-twister". The whole point is that you can ONLY see this topic with a self-righteous point of view, and as soon as somebody makes a valid point and questions how Area Bombing was against the Geneva convention and morally awful (other than useless), you cry "but they did it too!!!". SO?! We all know what the Nazis did, we're not questioning that, we're wondering why the crimes that YOU committed are more tolerable than the ones of the enemy, so much that you feel entitled to erect a statue as memory of it. Don't you REALLY see the twisted logic in this?!




can you remind me where I said that?



Thank you for it.......

Well, you objected to the allegedly expressed opinion from Sternjaeger "Britain are war criminals", which could be interpreted as "British citizens weren't war criminals", which is in this form wrong.

Further you interpreted Sternjaegers sentence': we're wondering why the crimes that YOU committed are more tolerable than the ones of the enemy as a slight to all britains, which is not correct as that a nation was adressed, not people.

But you decided to refer it to the people, which is wrong in this context.

I'll leave it at that, cause im on the way to become, intoxicated and therefore inable to write meaningful sentences

[bongodriver]

[QUOTE=robtek;393444]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Well, you objected to the allegedly expressed opinion from Sternjaeger "Britain are war criminals", which could be interpreted as "British citizens weren't war criminals", which is in this form wrong.

Further you interpreted Sternjaegers sentence': we're wondering why the crimes that YOU committed are more tolerable than the ones of the enemy as a slight to all britains, which is not correct as that a nation was adressed, not people.

But you decided to refer it to the people, which is wrong in this context.

I'll leave it at that, cause im on the way to become, intoxicated and therefore inable to write meaningful sentences

No what I'm really objecting to is Sterns constant belittleing of the British at every given opportunity, if you bothered to process what I wrote you might undestand that.

the issue over Harris is just a small part of Sterns overall disdain for the British but he brandishes it like a trump card.

Prost!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Apart for my personal judgement on Churchill's role in the whole affair (which again is not pretty clear, since the pressure for the "go" on the area bombing was coming from different fronts, he never was particularly fond of it, as it emerged in several private letters that came out), I normally think that one should avoid erecting statues of political leaders (let alone military ones!), especially if they were involved in controversial decisions.

Hmmm, 'Churchill's role in the whole affair which again is not pretty clear'.

He was the leader of The United Kingdom and The British Empire, and Head of the War Cabinet.

It was Churchill together with Charles Portal who overturned Chamberlain's instruction to avoid carrying out raids where civilian lives may be put at risk. It was Portal who originally recommended the deliberate targeting of cities.

It was Churchill who asked rhetorically in 1943 'Are we beasts?' but continued to endorse the area bombing policy and the overall Strategic Bombing campaign.

Harris was not some sort of piratical maverick doing everything behind his Prime Minister's back, or behind the backs of the War Cabinet, The Air Ministry, or behind the back of the Supreme Commander Allied Forces Europe or his deputy. I say yet again, Harris did nothing which was not sanctioned and approved by Churchill and the War Cabinet.

Churchill was leader of the British nation, the British People and all of it's armed forces. Is it clear yet?

[Sternjaeger II]

sorry lads, been down to the pub, and despite the 4 pints of Black Sheep I would like to say something..

@ Bongo: I'm sorry man, but I don't think I can keep on talking about this with you any longer. I keep on talking facts, you deliberately derail the conversation just because you think I'm an UK hater, whereas I'm just a fan of reality check.

I think Dutch's last post really embodies the spirit of some Britons that I was referring to "Yeah bombing civilians is a war crime and it's against the Geneva convention.. if they do it", which is a very dangerous one. The fact that he's ready to vouch for the perpetrator of a war crime doesn't make him any better than the Nazis, but as long as one feels that he's entitled to break the rules "because we're doing it for a good cause", then we won't have much of a progress (and Dutch, no I didn't know about Harris' statue, but I also know that common sense and good taste are often given for granted).

You said you don't care about the Harris' statue, well you should my friend, because it conveys the wrong message, which received harsh critiques from the mayors of the cities that were at the receiving end of Harris' policy.

Harris knew it wasn't effective (it didn't work against England after all), they knew it would have cost them a lot of lives and aircraft, they knew it would have caused a lot of disruption after the war, but they did it nonetheless, and the only explanations are retaliation, propaganda and politics (because the Russians pressed hard for it).
And just like in England, thousands of innocent children and women died, for no reason other than propaganda and a policy that was twice as wrong because it deliberately didn't want to learn from its own lesson.

If you're cool with all that, then yes, feel free to celebrate Butcher Harris.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Hmmm, 'Churchill's role in the whole affair which again is not pretty clear'.

He was the leader of The United Kingdom and The British Empire, and Head of the War Cabinet.

It was Churchill together with Charles Portal who overturned Chamberlain's instruction to avoid carrying out raids where civilian lives may be put at risk. It was Portal who originally recommended the deliberate targeting of cities.

It was Churchill who asked rhetorically in 1943 'Are we beasts?' but continued to endorse the area bombing policy and the overall Strategic Bombing campaign.

Harris was not some sort of piratical maverick doing everything behind his Prime Minister's back, or behind the backs of the War Cabinet, The Air Ministry, or behind the back of the Supreme Commander Allied Forces Europe or his deputy. I say yet again, Harris did nothing which was not sanctioned and approved by Churchill and the War Cabinet.

Churchill was leader of the British nation, the British People and all of it's armed forces. Is it clear yet?

yeah, I know all of that, all I was saying is that it wasn't that straightforward and that when you receive so much pressure from so many different angles, you might take the wrong decision.
Truth is that Churchill did also take a lot of right decisions, whilst Harris didn't .

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No what I'm really objecting to is Sterns constant belittleing of the British at every given opportunity, if you bothered to process what I wrote you might undestand that.

the issue over Harris is just a small part of Sterns overall disdain for the British but he brandishes it like a trump card.

Prost!

that's your huge chip on the shoulder mate, not mine. I just find it surprising that some of you are so naive to think that your own country only dispersed daisies during its glorious history, and what's funny is that some get all wound up only when it's a foreigner who makes such remarks. The idea one gets is that despite your age you don't seem to be mature enough to take a critique constructively, you have to take everything down to a personal attack, deforming and blowing things out of proportion to then counterattack with further nonsense, and believe me, most of us sit on the side and look at you relentlessly charging at windmills..

And Robtek, thanks for your posts, even if you normally detest my posts

[bongodriver]

Classic.....the old wind people up to boiling point and then arrogantly declare how how right you must be because they have the chip on their shoulder.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yeah, I know all of that, all I was saying is that it wasn't that straightforward and that when you receive so much pressure from so many different angles, you might take the wrong decision.
Truth is that Churchill did also take a lot of right decisions, whilst Harris didn't .

Make up your mind, was Harris the spawn of Satan who conciously murdered civilians, or was he just pressured into making a bad decision?

It's funny to watch how you deal with facts when they get presented to you.

[Sternjaeger II]

Jeez,I was referring to Churchill there,not Harris.. Look, just leave it..

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Jeez,I was referring to Churchill there,not Harris.. Look, just leave it..

Oh Churchill.....so not Harris then........it's all so much clearer now, Churchill was pressured into making the bad decision to approve Harris to conduct area bombing.....