Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Al Schlageter]

It is nice to see that Kurfy does not believe that it was only 16 squadrons in Sept anymore.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

It is nice to see that Kurfy does not believe that it was only 16 squadrons in Sept anymore.

its progress of sorts

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

BTW a reality check from lane is kind of a self-contradiction. He should check his site first for such, see silly claims about the 1-minute rating of the DB 601A not having been introduced until 1942, that 601N variants have only appeared towards the end of the battle of britain and so on. A 'reality check' from a guy who has become famous for such manipulations sounds a bit incredible to me.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

The DB 601A data charted above comes from the DB 601 A u. B Moteren-Handbuch of May 1942, which includes a 1 minute take-off rating. The Betriebs und Wartungsvorschrift zum Mercedes Benz Flugmotor, DB 601 A u. B., Ausgabe C, October 1940 also notes a 1 minute take-off rating. 23c The highest permissible values in climb and level flight were 1.3 ata and 2400 RPM. 23d A clockwork mechanisim limited take off boost to 1 minute only.23e The take-off rating was not mentioned in the Me 109 E Flugzeughandbuch; the maximum engine limits are stated as 1.3 ata, 2400 rpm.

Just for fun let's just see what passes for "opinion" on the Kurfurst 109 Forum
http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/a-pos...ters-t302.html

And there's nooo problem quoting from lane's websites when it apparently puts the Spitfire in a bad light http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/mk-xi...ints-t114.html In general Good for laughs but go elsewhere for objectivity.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

And because lanes excellent posts can't go unanswered, and balance is needed, here's all the evidence that's been shown so far in this thread, that a single fighter in 11 group flew ops with 87 octane fuel during the BoB...

Great summary, thanks!

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

its progress of sorts

We will see if Kurfy can come up with such proofs when it comes time to model the 1.98ata Bf109K-4.

Not very likely.

[Kurfürst]

[QUOTE=NZtyphoon;423177]http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

The DB 601A data charted above comes from the DB 601 A u. B Moteren-Handbuch of May 1942, which includes a 1 minute take-off rating. The Betriebs und Wartungsvorschrift zum Mercedes Benz Flugmotor, DB 601 A u. B., Ausgabe C, October 1940 also notes a 1 minute take-off rating. 23c The highest permissible values in climb and level flight were 1.3 ata and 2400 RPM. 23d A clockwork mechanisim limited take off boost to 1 minute only.23e The take-off rating was not mentioned in the Me 109 E Flugzeughandbuch; the maximum engine limits are stated as 1.3 ata, 2400 rpm.

Oh, its refreshing that 'lane' has revoked his earlier err, 'opinion'. At least he is no longer in denial of the 1-minute rating like he was propagating for years.

More interesting things in the article, since it has sparkled such interest, and to establish the 'credibility' of that site's articles and lane's opinion expressed them:

1, In his comparisons of engine outputs, he displays one the 1100 PS DB 601A-1 with the old type supercharger, even though the power ratings for the ones with the new supercharger are present in the very October 1940 DB 601 manual he lists as a source.

2,Similarly, he completely ignores the E-x/N models in all his comparisons, which he claims appeared 'towards' the end of the Battle, and in penny pocket numbers', when in fact they were present in July 1940 already. In contrast the Spitfire II which appeared a good month later than these and equipped only a handful Squadrons by the time the great daylight fighter engagements all but ended, received a large amount of his attention, insisted as an improved type, when in fact his own site's flight trials leave no doubt about it's indifferent performance in comparison of the badly mauled Spitfire I. Both were were inferior to the 109E with 601N engines, which is likely the cause about the silence and lies about the latter type's absence from the engine and flight performance comparisons. They would make Spitfires look bad I guess.

3, In connection, he 'forgot' to mention and list the outputs of the 1175 PS DB 601Aa, which he claims to have been never been used on any but export Emils. He even 'quotes' Olivier Lefebvre, who has clearly stated that about 1/3 of the DB 601 production was the Aa model, and that all E-7 and E-x/B models were found with the Aa. So, in short ignores one of main engine types and simply selects the lowest performance Emil in his comparisons, misquotes Olivier Lefebvre and just plain dishonest.

4, Again in connection, he 'forgot' to mention the fact that the DB 601 had an option to overrev the engine above FTH and increase engine power, a practice used and described by Steinhilper in his book, who he as usual selectively qoutes enthusiastically to prove that the Emils propeller was 'troublesome'.

5, He misquotes the WNr. 1774 trials, describing them as running over the official boost limits. In fact the said trials note the engine was measured in bench test and was found to develop about 50 HP less than the nominal figures, and the test results were corrected for the nominal powers. Needless to say, 'lane' only shows the figures which depict the WNr. 1774 down on power.

6, He 'forgot' to mention the automatic propeller system on the Bf 109 having been introduced in late 1939 (listed in the December 1939 109E short manual he used to 'prove' the 1-min rating was not cleared yet...) and tries to create the impression it was an automn 1940 thing just introduced.

7, He 'quotes' the following meeting for the 100 octane issue - at this stage of uniform disbelief, surely to be called partisan attitude:

The Co-ordination of Oil Policy Committee noted in the conclusions of their 18 May 1940 meeting with regard to the "Supply of 100 Octane fuel to Blenheim and Fighter Squadrons" that Spitfire and Hurricane units "had now been stocked with the necessary 100 octane fuel". 35

As can be seen the actual document speaks of no 'Spitfire and Hurricane' Squadrons' (lane's brainchild) but the 'units concerned'. Obviously the actual text got in the way of the agenda.



8, Another curious way of 'quoting' (cropped) documents is this.

This is how Spitfire I limits appear in his article:



... and this is the full version:




As you can see the the normal limitations of the Merlin III in the Spitfire I got strangely 'absent' for the article's purposes.

Its no wonder that most of us who have been aware of this site's and it's owners manipulations give very little credit to his articles. We all understand how documents are being manipulated, selectively quoted and falsified on that site.

Just for fun let's just see what passes for "opinion" on the Kurfurst 109 Forum
http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/a-pos...ters-t302.html

And there's nooo problem quoting from lane's websites when it apparently puts the Spitfire in a bad light http://kurfurst.freeforums.org/mk-xi...ints-t114.html In general Good for laughs but go elsewhere for objectivity.

Members on my site are free to express whatever opinion. Moderation is very very conservative, and we only dump mindless troublemakers - actually only one was flushed down in the toilet in the years, who's participating in this thread and who was permbanned from ubi about seven times and from ww2aircraft.net three times . I personally believe that Purple Fang is a bit overzelous in that, but probably he just have enough of the lies spread intentionally my some who I will not mention here (we all know who he is and his history). He is free to express his opinion as long as he respects other members.

And as for finding it 'good laughs', personally I have learned a thing or two from members who have been involved in 109 restoration a good deal. Maybe our estimeed but failed NZ student who fancies himself as a 'historian' with a lots of spare time find it good laughs, but they apparently do not share your judgement, for all what its 'worth'. In that case I'd suggest not to visit and quote my forums, as it makes you look funny that at the same time you are so aware of its postings, and people may misjudge you as someone not to be taken too seriously, quoting from forums you claim to a good laugh, and responding to people you claimed to have put on ignore.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

We will see if Kurfy can come up with such proofs when it comes time to model the 1.98ata Bf109K-4.

Not very likely.

Just don't get banned again when it happens again, Milo Morai, luftluuver, billythekid,, KrazyKanuk, Al Schlageter or whatever else name you were using until you were permabanned for calling Oleg Maddox an imbecile when he choose to model it.

Until that, you can still read of 1.98ata 109Ks here: http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boost...arance198.html

[Seadog]

Crumpp/Kurfurst:

All you have to do is show us proof that RAF FC during the BofB flew at least one, operational squadron, Hurricane/Spitfire 87 octane combat sortie. Just one...

You have presented your thesis and now we want proof.

I'm still waiting for your proof.

[Al Schlageter]

Ah poor Barbi, telling lies again. Got proof?

Glad you posted that link Barbi. Here is an excerpt:

This notes in relation of I./JG 27, III./JG 27, III./JG 53, IV./JG 53 to increase the maximum boost pressures to 1,98 ata manifold pressure.

It is not known if and how many units had converted to 1,98 ata manifold before that order came, but it should be noted these units, in particular III./JG 27, III./JG 53 and IV./JG 53 were the major users of the Bf 109 K-4 in the Lufwaffe. The other units effected are not known at present, but given the abundance of photograph depicting G-10 and K-4 fighters belonging to other units, marked for C-3 fuel use - a likely sign of the DC engine at 1,98 ata - the boost increase was likely not limited to JG 27 and JG 53 alone.

All will notice that there is no official documentation, just someones text. This in contrast to the reams of documentation you want provided on 100 octane fuel during the BoB.

Also notice that it is for an boost increase, not that it was done. Yet, how many reams of documentation have to be provided for 12lb boost.

Next, you do PURE SPECULATION on the numbers so modified as C3 fuel was also used in other DB605 engines besides the DB605D.

Then there is the question when the time comes if Crumpp will back up your PURE SPECULATION.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Can someone please post No. 2 or Summary of Conclusions of SIXTH Meeting?

Edit: Found them ...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1308308865
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...2&d=1308308889