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#151
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You'll need to engage low gear (2nd stage in game) in order to get any benefit from water injection. Both with and without water injection you're operating above full throttle altitude, where the benefit of water injection is nearly zero.
I would like to know what your "generally accepted" speed performance figures for the Wildcats are. I can tell you right now that they match or exceed the figures given in Americas 100000 as well as the figures quoted on ww2aircraftperformance.com. F6F and F4U performance is modelled for clean aircraft. |
#152
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![]() Like many high performance fighters, the rudder corrections for extreme changes in speed (as experienced in a sudden climb or dive) could not be rolled in quickly enough on the Hellcat, sometimes requiring the pilot to exert pressure on the rudder pedals; the same phenomenon was noted for the P-40, P-47, P-51 and the Corsair to some degree, much greater in the case of the P-40 (meaning that the Warhawk was a couple of orders of magnitude worse than the Hellcat), about the same as in the P-47 and less in the other types. If the rudder issues you refer to consist of the notation on page 8, it was a minor issue and quite acceptable (and clearly superior to the rudder input demands placed on a pilot flying a Bf 109 or FW 190). AFAIK, it was common to all models of the Hellcat, and considered a fairly mild vice. Edit: The reason it was mentioned is that the original contract probably specified that rudder forces would be trimmable throughout the aircraft's performance (I'd have to re-read Tillman's book to be sure); this turned out to be impossible with the engine and propeller changes from the original R-2600 and Curtiss Electric combination envisioned for the Hellcat, so it was just noted and signed off on every acceptance test rather than go to the massively complicated task of revising all the contract documents in the possession of Grumman and the Navy Department (this was the age of hand-typed documents and carbon copies, remember; they hired thousands of young women to type and file and keep track of all the hard copies, and had warehouses full of the original documents) and getting them re-signed. I can tell you from personal experience that some government contracts still get this sort of standard waiver treatment for minor issues and that if the government rep who had to inspect the paperwork was transferred, you'd better be able to produce the original paper trail for his or her replacement. cheers horseback Last edited by horseback; 08-13-2013 at 09:23 PM. |
#153
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![]() As mentioned in an earlier post, ww2aircraftperformance.com shows a test for the FM-2 with a level speed at 5000 ft of 312 mph true (502 kph); an F4F test for 4600 ft shows a true airspeed of 283 mph (455 kph). Attached is a blowup of the chart from America's Hundred-Thousand for the Wildcats' various models' Speed and Climb performance, scanned from the book and then printed on graph paper in the forlorn hope that it would be made a bit clearer (Murphy made his usual appearance, alas). The FM-2's speed graph line is highlighted in pink, the F4F-4 is in blue and the F4F-3 is in green. As you can see, the FM-2's line at 5000 ft is clearly east of the 300 mph line, while the F4F-3/-4's lines are well to the west of it, around 285 mph. I used the same references you claim you used. cheers horseback |
#154
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I can't imagine adding RL levels of torque in the game at this point in its life; the 109 and P-40 would become almost impossible, never mind 'interesting', to land or take off for the vast majority of players. Personally, I already have a full 'whine' cellar. ![]() cheers horseback |
#155
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The HUD tells you the water injection is active because it is. It works above full throttle altitude. It did in real life. There's just no increased boost any more, and therefore there's no meaningful extra power. As it is in real life.
In game, the F4F manage around 295 mph at 5000ft. So clearly, the Wildcats do not "fall well short of generally accepted performance figures". Two of them are clearly overmodelled, and one of them falls "somewhat" short of generally accepted performance figures, and that not even at all altitudes. Unfortunately though, at the important ones. |
#156
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Funny thing how I read from guys allowed to try out a 109 because they qualify and still going off the strip just trying to take off the first time. |
#157
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I think IL2 Compare helps you figure out at what altitude boost no longer makes a difference. There are two lines on each maximum speed graph: the speed at 100% throttle, and the speed at 110%/boost. In some planes, like the Hurricane and Spitfire, the two lines meet at 4-5000m.
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#158
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The document above states: "Rudder trim effectiveness was not sufficient to trim in the high power climb." If I get this correctly it means though FULL rudder trim was applied in a high power climb the plane still deviated from flying straight. So at least early F6F-3s were trim hogs in rudder when climbing with full power - and I doubt that later model F6F behaved much different - even if a larger trim tab or different rudder were added, changing from clevel flight to climb would still require lots of trim change in rudder. Water injection does "move" the power curve towards more power AND towards lower alt. So while the F6F-3 will be faster with first stage of the charger at 5kft (FTH~1000m), the F6F-5 will be faster when water injection is engaged in the second stage at that alt. Same for the Corsairs: F4U-1 in first stage and F4U-1A in second stage when using WI above~1000m. Water injection will work and will use water/methanol mix in first stage though, BUT will not have much of an effect. Just compare the two power curves of the F6F-3(without WI) and and the F6F-5 in IL2compare. (Or F4U-1//F4U-1a) |
#159
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Horseback, thanks for the effort you've put into this thread and my apologies for hijacking it somewhat. Your suggestion regarding 109 radiators is noted and I'll give it a go. In RL according to Finnish 109 pilots. the effect on speed was pretty minimal to the point of not being noticed, whether rads were open or closed. If 109G6's ever get an fm makeover perhaps this'll get fixed as well.
There was a very early mod from the AAA days which did up the torque effects for the 109, how accurate it was I couldn't say, but slamming the throttle to the wall at take off wasn't wise as it did have a gap where the rudder was non resposive and if the tail was lifted too early it got a bit tense! |
#160
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Even if they are about 20 kph faster than they should be, that impression is hard to shake. In any case, the FM-2 is poorly represented, and if former pilots' direct testimony to me is to be believed, the tall-tail Wildcat could accelerate with the Zeros and Oscars they encountered in the Marianas and the Philippines (the old guys picked out all of the Japanese fighters from my then-extensive collection of 1/72nd scale models and named each one --and corrected some of the color choices I made). Even accounting for the usual hypercompetitive BS factor present any time Navy veterans of any age meet, that means that like its climb, the FM-2's acceleration should be pretty good as well, even if measured against beat-up, poorly maintained A6M5s of the later war period. My former landlord said (realizing for the first time that my wife was present) that the FM-2 was "a he-heck of a lot uh, peppier than the Dash Fours or even the Threes." If it was anything like the one we have in Il-2 '46, there wouldn't have been three 70-something year old men in my living room that day in 1985. cheers horseback |
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