Friday Update, June 01, 2012

[Bobb4]

Originally Posted by csThor

Soviet pilot training was inadequate even before the war - and in late 1941 and 1942 it was abysmal (hence the "Take-off - Landing" designation for green pilots). Added to this, however, must be the lack of radios in most aircraft until late 1943, a totally whacky doctrine (which chained soviet pilots to a task/target and forced them to fight in any situation) and of course the fact that the Luftwaffe was very much the "elite" institution with regards to pilot training that it wanted to be itself at least until late 1942.

And even in late 1943 the major reasons the VVS loss rate went down considerably was the influx of many new units on their side and the withdrawal of most of the german fighter force after Kursk (back to Germany). The VVS learned much, mind you, but it still suffered far too many losses simply because of unimatinative tactics and a general stubborn adhesion to its inefficient doctrine.

Agree with you. However an even more important reason is the target rich environment the German's flew in.
But one must stress German aces who flew on the Western front also out performed their British and later American counter-parts.
This could again be put down to pilot skill and target rich environments..
Sometimes I get the feeling that soviet aces do not get the credit they deserve. There were 2719 Russian aces who scored over 5 kills while the UK only had 539. The US had 1293 (two fronts including Japan) with the Germans having 2884 on two fronts, East and West.
So cut the Russians a bit of slack

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by xpzorg

The killed 30 airplanes in month in first two years of war because vvs pilot training include only take off and landing, so veterans say non-fight casualties was far more extensive.
Try to imagine your chance to survive on ATAG after only some training hours of landing and take off.
I hear the voice of Western propaganda in your head.
So in second part of 1943 situation has dramatically changed.

That seems contradictory to what Manu just said. Which is it?

As for Western propaganda, I can't say what it's like from behind the iron curtain what with all those statues of leaders and state controlled TV but I don't think it's 'propaganda' when you have so many VVS pilots getting shot down despite superior numbers. Are you saying that this didn't happen? It's certainly not something that the BBC has spent resources rubbing into the UK populace from my experience.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Bobb4

There were 2719 Russian aces who scored over 5 kills while the UK only had 539. The US had 1293 (two fronts including Japan) with the Germans having 2884 on two fronts, East and West.
So cut the Russians a bit of slack

Interesting. How does that compare to the number of pilots enlisted though? It would be better to have percentages because it's pretty much obvious that in total numbers the UK will be far lower. The UK population in WW2 was about 30 million at the time, what was the Russian population?

Also, I don't know what confirmation was required for a 'kill' but RAF pilots had it relatively tough compared with the other nations on the Western Front, requiring a witness seeing the enemy go in or an actual crash site. On the Western front the fights were often above 25kft and shot down A/C were not recorded. All nations overclaimed, just some more than others.

[xpzorg]

Some Russian veterans did not speak very well about the skills of Western pilots. I can imagine that some of Western veterans say too about the Russians. It's not objective view anyway. Veterans say that in last two years of war luftwaffe was mere apology of former glory.

PS http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/alekseev/index.htm if you can read with google translate i recommend this interview.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by Bobb4

So cut the Russians a bit of slack

One cannot deny the skills the speciall Soviet flight squads had. Though that doesn`t even remotely pose a reason to model the Soviet planes in the most optimistic variant possible.

[bongodriver]

Did the update thread really just turn into a willie waving contest about who had the most aces with the inevitable finger pointing at the Brits for having the smallest?

[Osprey]

What we lose in size we make up for in variety thanks to the Empire. We punch above our weight, with great satisfaction........

[Osprey]

And where is our game killing FM patch B6? Surely it doesn't take over 3 weeks to make some temporary tweaks to make things slightly more realistic or is it something that 1C aren't concerned with?

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

+1

I concur,at the very least can we get the FM's corrected........please!

Surely there has been enough input from the community to assist you with this,and seeing this is a flight sim,I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that it would mean a lot to the majority of people on here.


EDIT:It is at last being sorted out,re today's update post from B6