Expansion from Desatersoft

Originally Posted by robtek

"political correctness" should be condemned, imo!
The people generally don't think political correct, why should the be forced to speak/post this way?

robtek, the problem arises particularly when it is not apparant as an opinion but presented as facts. That is exactly the problem with the handbook. If they had written: In our opinion this happened this way or that way. But that is exactly what they did not do.

As I think you are a very intelligent guy I think you know that by omitting certain information or by using specific argumentation and phrases things can get a very different meaning and direction.

The easiest thing for them would have been to just leave out any historic background in the leaflet or referred just to a short timeline. But they decided otherwise and wrote their vision of things there in a very particular way.

[NedLynch]

Sooo....any eta on the downloadable release of the expansion?

[robtek]

And where is the problem with that??
The possible readers are usually mature, with a founded knowledge, and not easily swayed from their path.
At the best the readers are researching for themselves what happened, regarding to different historicans.
We have democracies here, where censorship is usually frowned upon, yet you are condemning Desastersoft for presenting a different, but quite legal, view at history.

[No601_Swallow]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

My criticism of language skills refered to the German handbook and NSU's interpretation of the handbook text.

No it didn't.

And I haven't studied European history since 6th form in the early 80's, but I still remember my history teacher (who served in the war) summarising it all as there basically being two solutions to "the German Problem" (which is that there are basically too many German speakers in Europe - so there is always going to be a structural imbalance.

There were two solutions. Bismarck tried the first: a "Klein" Deutsch solution - a small state that excluded all the bits that Hitler later tried to incorporate into his "Gross" Deutsch solution - in which all ethnic/linguistic/arian Germans would be united in his "reich". So according to my history teacher, Hitler tried the solution that Bismarck rejected. Then, of course, came the insanity.

[Another interesting take on WW2 comes from Niall Furgusson, the Scottish historian, who states convincingly that from an economic point of view, the Nazis were buggered before they began. The last thing they needed was "liebensraum". What they needed was cheap immigrant labour to support their heavy industries. (They half achieved this through slavery during the war.) They also needed markets for their goods, which war stopped. They were basically like George Osborne (or Gordon Brown). So, it was always economically inevitable that they'd lose the war.]

Originally Posted by robtek

And where is the problem with that??
The possible readers are usually mature, with a founded knowledge, and not easily swayed from their path.
At the best the readers are researching for themselves what happened, regarding to different historicans.
We have democracies here, where censorship is usually frowned upon, yet you are condemning Desastersoft for presenting a different, but quite legal, view at history.

And where is the probleem with that??

We have democracies here, where censorship is usually frowned upon, yet you are condemning me for making public what is inside the handbook and how I interpret it?

I still think that potential buyers should be informed about what they might find inside. Then it is up to them to decide. That is what the whole thread is about. Well, at least it was until recently.

[Gerbil Maximus]

Originally Posted by adonys

After WWI Germany was brought on its knees, lots of its territory ripped of by its neighbors, and population was enslaved and forced to pay insane war compensations..

Why did that happen, oh yeah because the nation was in the directly responsible for the progression from political actions to warfare, resulting in the deaths of millions of people. Sympathy wasnt on the minds of the nations that had sacrificed millions in the conflict.

Is this view ment to be written as a characters view point? if so then its acceptable when placed as opinion.

If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Gerbil Maximus

..........
If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

That was your answer to:

After WWI Germany was brought on its knees, lots of its territory ripped of by its neighbors, and population was enslaved and forced to pay insane war compensations..
written by Adonys.

Which part of that is untrue?

The French used german "slave" labour in the rhineland.
Germany lost territories, i.e. all the colonies.
Germany had to pay immense reparations.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Gerbil Maximus

Why did that happen, oh yeah because the nation was in the directly responsible for the progression from political actions to warfare, resulting in the deaths of millions of people. Sympathy wasnt on the minds of the nations that had sacrificed millions in the conflict.

Is this view ment to be written as a characters view point? if so then its acceptable when placed as opinion.

If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

well, actually, after a war, if you want peace and pretend you are not a slaver country, you would offer fair terms for the defeated nation to can cope with. if you offer them enslavement and death, why it seem to you so out-of-the-ordinary for the enslaved county to revolt, if they have the guts to rather prefer death to enslavement?!!

germany was offered none at the end of WWI, so it was the perfect natural thing every sane mind would have to expect from them, namely rise again in war to obtain human peace settlements..

your history learned you some things.. but what if they are not really like that?!!

here's for you some food of thought, go search the internet for information and use your own brain to try to decide which of them are looking as to have really happened:
- it seems that Poland was kind of rogue state before WWII, and was deploying concentration camps in which the german population from german territories occupied by Poland at the end of WWI was exterminated, resulting in Germany attacking Poland to stop this (should it be really a coincidence the fact that most of the german WWII concentration camps were actually situated in Poland?!!)
- Britain starting the night bombing campaign over german cities (ie civil targets), as being the only thing they could do to hurt Germany at the time, and the odious german fuhrer refusing to pay them with the same coin for more than a month or two, until it could bear it no more, and started the british cities bombing campaign (namely London).. just to have the british cry outraged to the whole world how the cruel germans were hitting their civil tragets
- Britain civil casualties for the whole WWII are like 67.000 people.. while only in the dresden the infamous allied bombing raids killed around 200000 people.. yet the german are the criminal ones
- The allied (phosphorus) bombing campaign over german civil targets in order to destroy their homes and therefore obliterate their morale and resolution to continue the war, killing german civilians in their hundreds of thousands, and obliterating most of the german cities from the face of the earth and leaving most of german population without homes was never condemned as war crimes.. yet german leaders were condemned at Nurenberg as war criminals
- Eisenhower's DEF camps a the end of the war, in which between 900000 and 1700000 german POWs were starved to their deaths
- the most incredible of them all.. until you start digging for truth..: it seems that there were no systemaic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps, but just allied post war victory propaganda (skeleton like humans pictures were in fact presenting typhus infected prisoners, germans actually using cyclone B gas to disinfect the clothes of the prisoners in order to stop typhus disease and fleas spreading, clothes disinfection chambers actually having metal sealing doors and gas evacuation systems, while the alleged human gas chambers were not having those, huge gas chambers output bins presented as so after the war are not appearing in allied reconnaissance photos from 1945, mass normal looking like prisoners (not starved) from german concentration camps at liberation, and so on..)

Originally Posted by adonys

- it seems that Poland was kind of rogue state before WWII, and was deploying concentration camp in which the german population from german territories occupied by Poland at the end of WWI was exterminated, resulting in Germany attacking Poland to stop this (should it be really a coincidence the fact that most of the german WWII concentration camps were actually situated in Poland?!!)

Now for this you definitely have to provide proof sources (but please none from NPD et al). My German grandparents lived in these occupied territories and they were at very good terms with their Polish neighbours. I don't say there had been no conflicts but from there to make allegations that there had been an extermination plan by Poland there is a distance larger than that from Earth to Mars.

Originally Posted by adonys

- Eisenhower's DEF camps a the end of the war, in which between 900000 and 1700000 german POWs were starved to their deaths

So basically it was in some sort of "allied death camps" that one fifth of all military death in Germany were killed? Doesn't sound very realistic ...

Originally Posted by adonys

Britain civil casualties for the whole WWII are like 67.000 people.. while only in the dresden the infamous allied bombing raids killed around 200000 people.. yet the german are the criminal ones

All readers please beware: The source of this number of dead at Dresden is no one less than Goebbels himself. Serious historians concord that it was less. It does not make wrong or right the bombing which is another debate. What I find here very much debatable though is that some want to relativise by comparing numbers of dead which does absolute dishonour to the dead on both sides. I refute this kind of approach.

Originally Posted by adonys

- the most incredible of them all.. until you start digging for truth..: it seems that there were no mass gas executions in german concentration camps, but just allied pot war victory propaganda (skeleton like humans pictures were in fact presenting typhus infected prisoners, germans actually using cyclone B gas to disinfect the clothes of the prisoners in order to stop typhus disease and fleas spreading, clothes disinfection chambers actually having metal sealing doors and gas evacuation systems, while the alleged human gas chambers were not having those, huge gas chambers output bins presented as so after the war are not appearing in allied reconnaissance photos from 1945, and so on..)

This is Holocaus denial and some more revisionist crap usually coming from neonazis or the Iranian government ...
And of course the thousands of survivors and witnesses that had gone through the Shoah were all bought by MI6 and CIA. Some tattooed themselves etc. What utter crap. You probably also believe that man had never been on the Moon or the Americans were behind 9/11.


I am really speechless what I have to read. Well, some show their true colours at last.

[adonys]

seeking for truth doesn't make you have colors, sir.

Eisenhower's DEF.. official Wikipedia link..

"Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention"..

"After the DEF designations were made in the early summer of 1945, the International Red Cross was not permitted to fully involve itself in the situation in camps containing German prisoners (POWs, DEFs or SEPs), some of which initially were Rheinwiesenlager transit camps, and even though conditions in them gradually improved, "even the most conservative estimates put the death toll in French camps alone at over 16,500 in 1945""

"Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948, and most of those in French and Soviet captivity were released by the end of 1949, although the last big release occurred in 1956. According to the section of the German Red Cross dealing with tracing the captives, the ultimate fate of 1,300,000 German POW's in Allied custody is still unknown; they are still officially listed as missing.[41]"

they were thought during the following 50 years to be lost to the russians.. but.. recently russians opened their WWII camp prisoner files, and those were not in there..
and don't even try to say russian were trying to hide this number, as they haven't tried to hide all the others which were really attributed to them neither..

or is the german post-war red cross nazi-colored (as you imply by your words) to you too?!!


Yes, the 200.000 killed in dresden is a german WWII official casualty tall (though your Goebells naming of it is tendentious). the official allied post war one is around 25.000.. yet even 25k is more than 1/3 from the WHOLE british WWII civil casualties.. in a single bombing raid over a single german town..

Readers beware: go read official wikipedia "RAF strategic bombing during the Second World War" and the whole World War II city bombing.. a few allied "humanitarian" bombings: Tokio (march 1945 100k people died in a single allied firebombing), Hiroshima & Nagasaki (90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki), Hamburg, (read the allied name of this operation, ie a biblical city name obliterated with all its inhabitants by God's wrath! "killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and practically destroying the entire city. The unusually warm weather and good conditions meant that the bombing was highly concentrated around the intended targets and also created a vortex and whirling updraft of super-heated air which created a 1,500-foot-high tornado of fire, a totally unexpected effect"), Dresden (25k) and so on..


also, you seem to overlook the words I've used when presenting those of the points which are still in debate (for example "it seems that there was no systematic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps..")

everyone knows that history is written by the victors.. the whole human history is filled up with this.. but that doesn't mean bits f truth can not be surfaced, or that we should not try to ever find them..

I just presented those as food for thought and personal investigation.. have you done this? or it is just your "history" outrage talking for you?