Friday 2010-06-25 Dev. update and Discussion Thread

[C6_Krasno]

Almost dying RAF ? From what I understood, only a part of the RAF had her bases under attack, the part based south of London, near the coast. A good part of the RAF bases was out of the range of the 109s. And the RAF did not only included No.11 group, even if it had the majority of the fighters (as far as I know).

[TheGrunch]

The RAF was having a very hard time replacing pilots.

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by zapatista

the British navy in those other events was able to have those success only because neither force could have a significant permanent number of planes over their enemy, or have exclusive air dominance)

At Crete the Luftwaffe had total air superiority yet failed to stop the destruction of the sea borne invasion fleet by the RN. The Luftwaffe and Italian Air force had total air superiority for much of the time during the Malta siege but failed to prevent Malta being resupplied and re-armed.

The Luftwaffe could effectively keep out naval forces during daylight but could not stop action during hours of darkness. Naval forces kept north of the Thames and west of Isle of Wight would have been out of effective reach during the day but still close enough to intervene off the invasion beaches at night. Forces based at Harwich would take 2hrs to reach Dover at 25knots (depending on tides). Any German attack on Harwich would be outside of range of effective fighter cover.

[Zorin]

Originally Posted by zapatista

its uncertain the navy could have been a decisive factor in blocking the invasion, however valiantly it would have tried to delay it

once the germans had air supremacy over the south of england (and most of the rest of england presumably therefore), any major shipping action by the British in the channel would have been easy prey to torpedo attack and dive bombers
.....

Agreed.

Once German air supremacy would have been established, all the Navy would have done is dash out off any British harbours in reach of the Luftwaffe and run for save havens in the US. There would have been no point, apart of being stupidly heroic, to stay and be bombed to bits.

Additionally, I would say it is save to assume that if BoB had been won by the Luftwaffe, the carrier projects would have been finished and therefor the Atlantic and especially Iceland would have been no save place for any US or joined US/British efforts of establishing a foothold there.

[csThor]

At Crete there was one Luftflotte - there were two and a lot more Stukas present in France in 1940. The outcome can't be extrapolated by picking some other battle and try to take its results and slot them in place for the battle in question.

Not to mention that at Crete the distances were somewhat longer ... and were constantly getting longer for the german AC as the RN moved to the south of Crete. In the case of a potential invasion of England the RN would have come to the germans.

But again trying to guess the exact outcome is reading the tea leaves.

[Zorin]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

At Crete the Luftwaffe had total air superiority yet failed to stop the destruction of the sea borne invasion fleet by the RN. The Luftwaffe and Italian Air force had total air superiority for much of the time during the Malta siege but failed to prevent Malta being resupplied and re-armed.

The Luftwaffe could effectively keep out naval forces during daylight but could not stop action during hours of darkness. Naval forces kept north of the Thames and west of Isle of Wight would have been out of effective reach during the day but still close enough to intervene off the invasion beaches at night. Forces based at Harwich would take 2hrs to reach Dover at 25knots (depending on tides). Any German attack on Harwich would be outside of range of effective fighter cover.

1. Crete and Malta would have been not supplied if mainland Britain had been isolated.

2. The U-boats would have made sure no British ships even got close to any German landing operations.

[Xilon_x]

You not remember DODECANNESO island.
Italy have the island to south east of greece during ww2 you remember island of RODI? yes Rodi is italian island territory.
http://www.dodecaneso.org/Dodecanneso.htm
http://www.dodecaneso.org/ukexspedition1941.htm

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by Zorin

1. Crete and Malta would have been not supplied if mainland Britain had been isolated. -- Germany had no way to isolate Britain without invading.

2. The U-boats would have made sure no British ships even got close to any German landing operations.

-- U-boats might have had a limited impact and maybe sink a few boats but fast moving surface craft would get through and create havoc. Britain had around 60 destroyers alone in Home waters at this time.

The RAF even if "defeated" in BoB would not have ceased to exist. It would probably have been withdrawn to the north and kept in being to resist the invasion.

[robday]

Originally Posted by janpitor

And also sometimes you would like to skip take off for time shortage.

Climb into the cockpit, hit autopilot, hit time skip. No problem!

[Il2Pongo]

Originally Posted by zapatista

its uncertain the navy could have been a decisive factor in blocking the invasion, however valiantly it would have tried to delay it

once the germans had air supremacy over the south of england (and most of the rest of england presumably therefore), any major shipping action by the British in the channel would have been easy prey to torpedo attack and dive bombers

whatever glorious action the British navy had in the previous locations mentioned (except for dunkirk which was a special case, because the germans largely delayed their final push including massive air commitments on channel shipping and evacuating troops on the beaches), the British navy in those other events was able to have those success only because neither force could have a significant permanent number of planes over their enemy, or have exclusive air dominance)

iirc wherever navy action was a dominant in ww2, it almost always meant it was far out of reach of enemy lands (except of course in the pacific where the aircraft carrier strategy was decisive in naval battles, but even there yet again whomever had air supremacy or dominance over enemy shipping, it could pretty much sink them at will)

i more or less concur with the current main view of history, Brittan might have "won" BoB, but it was largely because of german mistakes (not constantly targeting radar, switching from enemy airfield targets to civilian terror attacks etc..). the 6 months delay it caused in a potential invasion also allowed the evacuated troops to get reorganized, and then potentially be able to repel the invading forces (also uncertain, but more plausible then the navy doing it on its own).

I largely go by the evidence of Norway, Create and Malta. Invading Norway, that bastion of naval power, destroyed the surface fleet of the Germans.
What where they going to do the first night of the invasion when the Royal Navy hit their transports at the beaches?
Britain was never in any danger of being invaded, they were in danger of capitulation, which was the only chance that Germany ever had to win the war.
People capitulating. Once countries decided to fight for real. The germans and the japanese were going to lose. And not lose gentle, like the other time. This time it was going to leave a mark.