Friday 2010-03-05 Screenshots/Video and Discussion Thread

[MikkOwl]

And I already have a joystick, pedals and throttle and I can see it just fine. What were you just trying to suggest again?

[AdMan]

this may have been addressed before but I'm wondering if there will be offline multiplayer support. If I have a dual monitor or LAN setup can a friend jump on and be a tail gunner/co-pilot/AA? and then could we play like that online too?

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

And I already have a joystick, pedals and throttle and I can see it just fine. What were you just trying to suggest again?

precisely

[MikkOwl]

If you are trying to argue for what I think you are (I can't assume 100% since you only hinted at it), you think that since you can (if you move your head and eyes far enough) see your arms and legs, so it is superflous to have it rendered in the cockpit.

Using that same reasoning, since I have those items I mentioned, they don't need to be rendered either. Yank out the 3d models of the control column, throttles, prop pitch levers, rudder pedals.

The reason for body rendering is the same for rendering the control column etc. They are in a virtual world on a view screen we are looking at. If we had access to a full size sim-pit cockpit to sit in with a huge projector to encase us, then we could switch off the cockpit rendering because we would have no use for it - real physical objects would replace them. But very few people posess such a setup.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

If you are trying to argue for what I think you are (I can't assume 100% since you only hinted at it), you think that since you can (if you move your head and eyes far enough) see your arms and legs, so it is superflous to have it rendered in the cockpit.

Using that same reasoning, since I have those items I mentioned, they don't need to be rendered either. Yank out the 3d models of the control column, throttles, prop pitch levers, rudder pedals.

The reason for body rendering is the same for rendering the control column etc. They are in a virtual world on a view screen we are looking at. If we had access to a full size sim-pit cockpit to sit in with a huge projector to encase us, then we could switch off the cockpit rendering because we would have no use for it - real physical objects would replace them. But very few people posess such a setup.

the reason cockpits are modeled is because we don't have real historically accurate ww2 cockpit replicas to sit in at our computer monitors, but we do have real ww2 replica body parts

by all means feel free to but yourself a pair of authenric flight gloves, jacket, etc to help your "immersion" if you feel it necessary

[AdMan]

whatever the case, they will eventually be modeled, I just hope I can turn it off

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by AdMan

the reason cockpits are modeled is because we don't have real historically accurate ww2 cockpit replicas to sit in at our computer monitors, but we do have real ww2 replica body parts

by all means feel free to but yourself a pair of authenric flight gloves, jacket, etc to help your "immersion" if you feel it necessary

The body parts, and the controllers we have, are not in the correct position. I have to significantly look away from my view screen in order to see myself interacting with the controllers (and even then it is hard to see due to the vast illumination difference). But my monitor is rather large (if I sit close to it); and with headtracking, it's a bit like wearing a VR display - except when I look down to my legs I am a ghost, and controls are moving on their own.

In the past when I have done sim-racing, I have been able to put the steering wheel on the desk in front of the monitor in such a way that it merges with the virtual cockpit. I would then, obviously, disable the rendering of the in-game wheel as it serves no purpose at all and I would just be seeing double.

I find wearing far-too-hot gloves (and purchasing them to begin with) and the other things you suggested to be a lot of hassle as well as doing nothing to correct the missing pieces in the cockpit.

I understand what you are saying if you see the aircraft as something to look at, as if admiring a plastic scale model kit. I see it as that, sometimes, but when flying, I would expect that a pilot would not find that they looked transparent, and neither do I want to experience that. Part of the cockpit is missing.

EDIT: I am sure they will allow people to turn it off. It has almost always been the case in the past. Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault, and Armed Assault 2 did not allow making anything transparent, but I have yet to hear of a flight sim that did not allow it. BlackShark allows it, for example.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

The body parts, and the controllers we have, are not in the correct position. I have to significantly look away from my view screen in order to see myself interacting with the controllers (and even then it is hard to see due to the vast illumination difference). But my monitor is rather large (if I sit close to it); and with headtracking, it's a bit like wearing a VR display - except when I look down to my legs I am a ghost, and controls are moving on their own.

In the past when I have done sim-racing, I have been able to put the steering wheel on the desk in front of the monitor in such a way that it merges with the virtual cockpit. I would then, obviously, disable the rendering of the in-game wheel as it serves no purpose at all and I would just be seeing double.

I find wearing far-too-hot gloves (and purchasing them to begin with) and the other things you suggested to be a lot of hassle as well as doing nothing to correct the missing pieces in the cockpit.

I understand what you are saying if you see the aircraft as something to look at, as if admiring a plastic scale model kit. I see it as that, sometimes, but when flying, I would expect that a pilot would not find that they looked transparent, and neither do I want to experience that. Part of the cockpit is missing.

EDIT: I am sure they will allow people to turn it off. It has almost always been the case in the past. Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault, and Armed Assault 2 did not allow making anything transparent, but I have yet to hear of a flight sim that did not allow it. BlackShark allows it, for example.

I do see it as a model (although not plastic) but beyond that I like to see the mechanisms of all cockpit parts as well as use the markings as you actually would to make sure they are set in the correct position. Also to make sure my gaming components are working, centered, etc. If I give a little rudder I want to be able to look down at the cockpit pedals to make sure they are corresponding, same with throttle, supercharger, etc. Cockpits are so cramped even when operating these components in real life you sometimes have to move your arm or eyeball around your own bodyparts or peak back to double check you are where you want to be, in a scale modeled cockpit with pilot your not going to see much more than heavily clothed knees, hands and elbows, even the stick is mostly burried in your crotch [no homo]. If you use the cockpit like it's a real cockpit it can severely hamper gameplay to have your vision be at the mercy of virtual pilot animations

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by AdMan

[...] If you use the cockpit like it's a real cockpit it can severely hamper gameplay to have your vision be at the mercy of virtual pilot animations

I understand completely and with all your reasons and preferences, and consider them valid concerns. In your rudder pedal example, I do not think it would be any difference if you had the body rendered as well - assuming it moved to push the rudder pedals. The knees would move up and down as they bend or straighten out when pushing pedals, and the feet themselves would often also be clearly visible in the frame of the pedals. The control column position would be easier to judge because we get additional reference points (its position compared to the legs of the pilot).

Not many things can be placed in such a way as to make them completely obscured by the pilot, because the pilot had almost no room to move anything in reality either. Strapped tight in a bucket seat, feet attached to pedals, not much room.

The G940 has a hand sensor.. I wish that could be used with animation. I.e. take my hand off the stick and it is fully visible in the cockpit

Oleg does not consider it important (even if I do) and will not bother with it because of the work it would take from the team to do it 'well'. I read this on the forums before. But it is possible, and if it is possible, it must come in a simulator as significant as this sooner or later. Big opportunity for third party devs.

[MikkOwl]

EDIT (Damnit, I can't stay away from the edit button lately).

I am sure there are a bit of all kinds of motivations working together. For everyone's benefit . Here's a guess-list:

• Promotion & Hype (inexpensive way of doing it, except time - people read it and repost on news sites and forums. And we like this better than some unreal trailer close to release)
• Taking the pulse of the community (seeing what they talk about)
• Constructive feedback on WIP presented (for improvement/correct inaccuracies if present - tough crowd here)
• Collecting wishes and good ideas for delivering a better Storm of War (everyone wins)
• Genuine gratitude to community and desire to treat them well (including not promising stuff that won't be there)
• Explaining why things are, or cannot be, a certain way (that is something you almost never see from others - great public relations)
• Maintaining contact can help in recruiting general help from the community

There's so many benefits to this. In fact, I am surprised that developers don't do this as much elsewhere. Maybe the norm is to be bound by contract to silence and let some PR department supply those orchestrated trailers..

If I was Oleg, I think.. the worst thing about this is the language barrier. Imagine for any of you here that you had to communicate in something almost completely foreign to you at first (maybe Chinese? French/German? For those who are neither). Something we did maybe not even read in school. I had it since I was 10 to 18, and the standard was quite high.

Спасибо, Олег.