The 'Great Debate' - Spitfire vs BF109

[Al Schlageter]

Supposedly Marseille's last combat lasted 15 minutes. 109F vs Spit V Trop.

That Spit should have augured in at the first defensive move it made, at least according to an aviation expert..

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

Supposedly Marseille's last combat lasted 15 minutes. 109F vs Spit V Trop.

I think that's been de-bunked as a myth.

Edit: Let me elaborate: Not sure if you're a member on butch2k's board, but Henning posted a thread not too long ago about an article in the July 2012 edition of Flugzeug Classic, talking about a 15-minute dogfight against a spitfire that Marseille eventually shot down on 29 Sept 1942 and that the pilot of the spitfire was "the best he'd ever met."

The consensus over there is that it's a myth because Marseille's last recorded kill was on the 26th of that month, and his squadron was put on rest leave (or whatever the term is) for the next three days.

[CaptainDoggles]

Forgot to include the link.

http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forum...showtopic=1992

I think the board is set up so that members are required to be sponsored by an existing member. If you don't have an account, send me a PM and I'll sponsor you for one.

Cheers.

[Al Schlageter]

"After his last combat on the 26 September, Marseille was reportedly on the verge of collapse after a 15-minute battle with a formation of Spitfires, during which he scored his seventh victory of that day."

[Glider]

One small observation, riding the Buffet doesn't mean flying through it. Its flying on the edge of the buffet, touching it and easing off a fraction.

If you fly in buffet your wing loses its effectiveness and you lose performance. Try to pull through the buffet i.e. tighten further and you will spin out. Riding it is riding the edge

My guess is that what they mean with "riding the buffet" is that they fly along the state when the inner wing sections were basically stalled (or maybe oscillating between stalled and unstalled air flow) creating the famous buffeting sound and vibrations that was used as an indicator by experienced pilots.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

"After his last combat on the 26 September, Marseille was reportedly on the verge of collapse after a 15-minute battle with a formation of Spitfires, during which he scored his seventh victory of that day."

Oh okay, we're talking about different things, I guess.

[winny]

Here's what Geoff Wellum says about it (BoB veteran).

However, in a Spitfire, just before the stall, the whole aircraft judders, it’s a stall warning, if you like. With practice and experience you can hold the plane on this judder in a very tight turn. You never actually stall the aircraft and you don’t need to struggle to regain control because you never lose it.

[Crumpp]

However, in a Spitfire, just before the stall, the whole aircraft judders, it’s a stall warning, if you like. With practice and experience you can hold the plane on this judder in a very tight turn. You never actually stall the aircraft and you don’t need to struggle to regain control because you never lose it.

Forget physics....

You have disproved it right here!!

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by Glider

Tomcat
Find any pilot of any nation including German ones, who found the Spitfire difficult or unpleasent to fly. If it was as difficult as people are making out you should be able to find someone.

Just remember that Molders described the SPitfire as being faultless in a turn and childishly easy to take off and land. He found it much easier that the Me109.

Stability depends on what you want out of the aircraft. As I tried to show with the different Gliders, the dedicated aerobatic Fox was far more sensitive than the others. A Fighter needs to be more sensative than any other type of fighting machine because of what it does.
This goes back to the first air combats in WW1. Generally speaking the first RFC fighting aircraft were too stable and couldn't mix it with the German fighters. This trend was broken with later fighters until the Camel which was probably too far the other way. Even here the establishment SE5a was more stable than the Camel. Stability is't one measurement, there are degrees of stability. Many bi-plans were marginally stable as you say, but many were very stable it depended what you wanted out of the design.

I admit that I don't understand your statement they would hve taken great care that the ailerons had the same sensitivity The ailerons are the same in each wing, but its late and I might be missing something obvious.

The German report also notes the longitudinal instability. It does NOT note the CG position of the aircraft.

Quick changes of the trajectory along the vertical axis cause especially with the Spitfire load changes around the cranial axis, coming from high longitudinal thrust momemtum, and significantly disturb the aiming.

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...g_Aug1940.html