Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Hood]

Just some general observations.

Pilots were taught not to stall, so that must have led to an in-built reluctance to push at the flight envelope. Those that could push closer to the limit could turn faster.

Turn rate can mean several things. The fastest turn rate can be incredibly quick but the resulting loss of energy means trouble. Continuous turn rate without loss of energy is usually quite a bit higher but as energy is retained that helps further manouevres.

As an example (and from memory of something I did a long time ago) I could turn a Spit Vb 360 degrees in about 12 seconds but was then at stall speed. Turning 360 degrees at a maintained 250mph took about 20 seconds with a far wider turning circle.

If I were in a Spit maintaining 250mph in a turn I bet a 109 could turn inside, but if they missed the shot they have less energy. From memory again I think the best turn/energy ratio for a Spit was about 220mph with a turn of around 18 seconds. At the same speed a 109 took 21 seconds to do 360 degrees.

Finally, I seem to remember that the best way of turning in a 109 against a Spit is to do an elliptical turn i.e. to have a smooth curve to gain energy followed by a tight turn, kinda egg-shaped.

Or to put it more simply. All things being equal, if you're in a 109 don't turn with a Spit - there is nothing to stop a Spit pilot totally pushing the envelope as only our ego is hurt if we pull to hard and stall, we don't die.

Just ramblin'

Hood

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

And this is exactly why there is no reason to question the Spitfires superior turning ability, whenever there is a report of a 109 out turning a Spit the 109 was probably being flown by a skilled pilot against an average Spit pilot.

How can a RAF pilot with a bunch of hours in the 109 be more skilled than the other RAF pilots in their usual rides?

It could be also that the ones who actually out-turned the 109 were very skilled pilots while the 109 pilot could out-turn the other average pilots...

Simply there's no answer.

We can't know the real turn-rate skill of those plane: wingarea and power are only two of the many variables how dictate the maximum turn-rate.

Anyway I still think that it's easier to reach the best turn rate in a plane that does not kill you if you push too much.
Probably the Spitfire real turn rate was better, but easily only the bravest pilot could go near it (so near that the next day they could have spinned losing their life).

[Crumpp]

Stalls and spins are nothing to be afraid of for a well trained pilot.

Only when you need room to recover and you don't have it.

Or when the aircraft will not recover at all.

There is a reason why the Spitfire was placarded against spinning.

[bongodriver]

NACA this NACA that, baloney this baloney that

[bongodriver]

How can a RAF pilot with a bunch of hours in the 109 be more skilled than the other RAF pilots in their usual rides?

Because if he was selected to an evaluation squadron then he is likely to be regarded as one of the best available.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Because if he was selected to an evaluation squadron then he is likely to be regarded as one of the best available.

To be the "best" in a Spitfire does not mean he will be the best in a 109.

If you place Vettel in a McLaren do you think that after 50 laps he will have the same results of Hamilton? Above all if he can't touch the car's setup.

Or think to Vale Rossi... one of the most skilled biker of all the time that is not able to drive a Ducati correctly and it's always behind less skilled pilots with the same ride (or slower).

[bongodriver]

Boy you people really get desparate in these discussions..

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Only when you need room to recover and you don't have it.

Or when the aircraft will not recover at all.

There is a reason why the Spitfire was placarded against spinning.

Another reason to doubt your claims to be a pilot, for those of us who do fly recognise the airframes shudders and buffets as 'warnings' of impending stalls and are able to react to them by simply unloading, which in an aircraft with light elevator controls is much easier.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Only when you need room to recover and you don't have it.

Or when the aircraft will not recover at all.

There is a reason why the Spitfire was placarded against spinning.

Must have killed a lot of Fw190 pilots with its snap roll/stall.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

Must have killed a lot of Fw190 pilots with its snap roll/stall.

Infact IIRC there are not reports of 190s out-turning Spitfires... but the 190 is a totally different animal compared to the 109.

Ah, to be honest, I'm not really a 109 lover...