109 elevator trim

[Osprey]

I am not a 109 jockey, nor am I anti-Luftwaffe, I seek maximum accuracy for this sim/game. If you answer this please do so with history in mind, not how your stats would be affected in game. Thanks.

My questions are about how elevator trim is used in game compared to real life.

1. How is it operated in a real 109?
2. Was it possible to apply it in combat, easily or normally?
3. What effect did this have?

I've heard that some 109 guys are using it to gain lead and can initially stay with even the Spitfire for 1/2 turn as it breaks for get off a few shots, I have certainly experienced this myself. I don't think we will know if this is true for real life, I would be surprised or I would have read about it.

Of course it could be flap they are using and the same applies - I struggle to see how a pilot could make a combat turn at G whilst turning a big wooden wheel in the cockpit.

I would like to see the 109 trim or flap modeled in such a way that if it wasn't used in real life then it should be very hard to apply in game to gain advantage.

There's a bug raised against flaps in the bugtracker here:
http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/28

[robtek]

Afaik the turn-dominance of the spitfire was in the sustained turn, so it might be according to reality that the 109 can stay behind in the beginning.

Iirc, it was the same with the 190 turning behind a better turning fighter.

In a 109 you might set a bit of nose up trim before the fight and correct that with the stick lightly forward, but that causes a drag penalty, costing you speed and energy.

The same with the use of flaps, which might give a slight increase in turning performance, but reduces again speed and energy so you loose more than you gain!

So, any pilot using this "advantage" throws away the advantages of his ride for a very fleeting increase, and if that one chance solution doesn't work he is out of luck.

One might also take in account, that because of the sensitive elevator of the spit the initial turn might not be as hard as it could be out of the fear of a stall.

The trim and the flaps in the 109 are reacting so slow in game (turning the wheels and its difficulties is simulated and it doesn't work with a axis!) that this "bug" is pure fantasy in my eyes.

[bolox]

r/l 109 flap/trimming operation:-
11.7" dia wheel with 5 3/4 turns between full up and down ( ~+3.4- -8.4 deg movement of tailplane)

RAE report on a captured 109e notes excellent placement and ease of operation. Also noted is the ease of using both with one hand to counter the nose down effect of flaps on aircraft trim (~10 deg nose down at full flap)- taken from 109 pilots notes by Crecy.
I'd also point out that a big wheel has more 'leverage' than a small wheel- but i haven't seen any force measurements for this

Can't recall anything on use of trim/flaps in combat as such but there are quotes of using trim (carefully ) to pull out of high speed dives iirc.

[5./JG27.Farber]

You can have trim on a wheel but not flaps Robtek.

But the use of trim to pull out of high speed dives is set before the dive isn't it... Osprey thinks poeple are using them in combat.

Ive never heard of anyone doing this. Like Robtek said. You could trim nose up and gain a minute advantage in the iniatial moment of the first turn but it still wont let you hang in a prolonged turn with a spitfire... The trim is so rough and over responsive If you where using it in combat it would throw your aim off.

Why dont you test it out for yourself? You will see how obsurd an idea it is.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Osprey thinks poeple are using them in combat.

Ive never heard of anyone doing this.

Many pilots are using it. So many actually that you won't be competetive if you're not imo.

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

The trim is so rough and over responsive If you where using it in combat it would throw your aim off.

Exactly, over responsive. It is certainly not throwing your aim off, it is helping you a big deal actually if you know how to control it. It is not too difficult to get hang of it tbh.

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Why dont you test it out for yourself? You will see how obsurd an idea it is.

Oh yes, I tested it a lot Farber. Osprey is spot on.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Robo, I would be careful before spewing assumptions like yours as truth. The elevator trim and landing flaps were separated systems altogether in Bf109. The trim was not tied to flaps to automatically adjust trim when flaps were cranked or flaps did not move if trim was applied. Both things were done separately by the pilot.

This "cheat trim" issue was cried out loud in original IL2 too, but applied to ALL planes, not only Bf109. Sure it was a bit sensitive in beta at least but much less so in later versions. Much better in CoD. And also you can check in CoD how it works, no matter how fast you move the assigned trim axle it does NOT move the trim wheel in game(cockpit) any faster and applies to Spits/Hurries as well. So there goes the theory of "cheat trim".

Maybe people should dig into the issue more than just vent in anger of something that is not there. IF there would be issues in ANY of the planes regarding the trim, for example, then Luthier and his team should fix it..regardless it being a red or blue plane as many want to categorize. Do not scream for simulation if the only way of simulation you want suits your own needs/agendas/whatever IMHO.

I can tell that I never turn in the Bf109E with Spitfire or Hurricane. NEVER. Maybe 45deg or so but after that I know I am toast as they WILL get on my 6 and blow me out of the sky. Energy is life!

I think Luthier and Co should address the FM/DM after the performance patch to pave way to an even better sequel where the issues are already squashed or much less prominent. Agree?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!Robo, I would be careful before spewing assumptions like yours as truth. The elevator trim and landing flaps were separated systems altogether in Bf109. The trim was not tied to flaps to automatically adjust trim when flaps were cranked or flaps did not move if trim was applied. Both things were done separately by the pilot.

I never stated they were interconnected in any way.

I only stated that the wheels were placed and designed as they were so the pilot could compensate for nose-down pitch when deploying the landing flaps by spinning both wheels at once.

[DB605]

"Trim-trick" was indeed used sometimes by some ace pilots in real life (Finnish ace K. Karhila was one of them). But like 5./JG27.Farber said, in game trim is too rough to use in combat situation, at least for me.

[Varrattu]

Originally Posted by Osprey

My questions are about how elevator trim is used in game compared to real life.

Unfortunaetly I never had the chance to fly a real WWII fighter. No idea how the elevator trim is used in game compared to WWII real life fighters.

Originally Posted by Osprey

1. How is it operated in a real 109?

I'm convinced that the BF109E-elevator-trim is very close to reality. The quoted bug afaik is a "1c forum myth".

Originally Posted by Osprey

2. Was it possible to apply it in combat, easily or normally?

I'm sure, it was. But I'm not sure wether a good BF109 pilot changed speed / energy against a better turn rate.

Originally Posted by Osprey

3. What effect did this have?

The trim-wheel allows me to move the aircraft control surfaces in small increments and hold that setting. A properly trimmed aircraft is much easier to fly, nothing more or less. A properly trimmed BF109 will be faster and / or safer.

Trimming the elevator allows me to maintain altitude or control climb or decent rate. It is not ment to gain advantage over a better turning fighter, for example the Spitfire.

If I do not want to climb I adjust elevator trim by causing the nose to go level or at a slight nose down angle of attack will allow me to gain airspeed as fast as possible.

If I do not adjust elevator trim and push the nose down by forcing my stick forwards my plane will increase speed but at a slower rate and control pressure may become excessive at high speeds and I will not achieve the maximum airspeed potential of my aircraft.

To increase turn rate and decrease turn radius, I use the flaps. Using flaps at the right time in the right situation can get me the lead I need to get a shot at the enemy or allow me to evade an enemy's gun fire.

Happy flying

Varrattu

[Sven]

Originally Posted by Osprey

2. Was it possible to apply it in combat, easily or normally?

I did not find a reference in my quick search for the trim in combat but I did found this:

Me 109 E:
"Stalling speeds on the glide are 75 mph flaps up, and 61 mph flaps down. Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels. If the engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps and undercarriage down, the airplane becomes tail-heavy but can easily be held with one hand while trim is adjusted. Normal approach speed is 90 mph. At speeds above 100 mph, the pilot has the impression of diving, and below 80 mph one of sinking. At 90 mph the glide path is reasonably steep and the view fairly good. Longitudinally the airplane is markedly stable, and the elevator heavier and more responsive than is usual in single-seater fighters. These features add considerably to the ease of approach. Aileron effectiveness is adequate; the rudder is sluggish for small movements.
(Landing) This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

Knowing this, it must've been possible to apply it in combat while controlling the plane with the other hand.

EDIT:

Me 109 G:
"Sarantola recalled that the MT was a very stable plane, but not the most maneuverable. The stick forces were quite large and elevator trim was used quite frequently while maneuvering.
MT was easy to fly and overall a safe plane. Flying and landing was easy."
- Olli Sarantola, Finnish fighter pilot. Source: Blitz '01 - Meeting With The Veterans by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

There you go, it was used frequently according to this fighter pilot!