Post made by Jason at Sim HQ

[hiro]

This is long but it has the quotes from the sim hq posts


What kinda gets me is the Jason post but the meat is what comes after:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...3376003/4.html

Re: Commentary: IL-2 Sturmovik: Reflections on the Past and Questions for the Future [Re: guod]
csThor
Team Daidalos
Member

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 2454
Loc: Germany
There is obviously a lot that went FUBAR during CloD development and not much is to blame on Ilya - so far I agree with Jason. But:

When Oleg was still there external input was valued and communication - even the tiniest bit of it - was ensured. I, personally, spent over two years researching and creating the german unit list and their emblems and markings and I was told the Maddox Games coding gurs were both pleased at the load of information and dismayed (since it meant more work for them ). But since Oleg departed there is a silence far more complete than in space, in fact there's more light coming out of a black hole than info coming from Maddox Games. I don't know what the issue is - I was given an internal document by Ilya shortly after release to fix a number of minor issues with the german unit list and the emblems and markings, but despite me sending the docs and links five times from my mail account and trying to get it across via three different people there has not been the slightest indication Maddox Games has received them. And after so much time (I sent it in April) I have trouble believing that it never arrived - I am actually beginning to think Ilya does not care about external input. Other people have reported the same, some even complained about a new somewhat contemptous attitude towards externals. Jason - I know you're good friends with Ilya, but I have to say that during the last 3 months he has managed to alienate a number of people who spent considerable time (and in cases considerable money) to produce content for CloD and who are now suddenly in the dark whether all that effort was wasted or not.

Jason, if you really have a solid friendship with Ilya I really ask you to tell him what is brewing in the community. A lot of people who were quite prepared to cut MG a lot of slack are pretty fed up and angry right now. And I am one of them.
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I remember CSthor being cool even when people tried to trip him up on facts way back when Team D took the reigns from the dev team for Il 1946 patches. And Team D was on the inside but couldn't really reveal BOB SOW facts back then.

I remember reading CSthor's posts and they made sense, he had a clear grasp of Team D and activities, was a pro in his area of expertise.



Maybe Ilya doesn't listen as much because a) I/we are a bunch of whiners and he must stick to the objectives (fry the bigger fish)

or

b) given his situation of fixing everything, he just has to prioritize

c) time is too short.

or the worst is

d) at this point doesn't care because X no. of reasons . . .

I can see how you fix one thing then someone else complains about historical accuracy etc . . .


Anycase this kinda goes with the sudden loss of communication with the change over




the other one is:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...3376003/6.html

777 Studios - Jason
Member


Whatever rootango. I tried to give some insight into what happened so some people would stop dumping all their dissappointment on Luthier. My point is that he is not solely responsible for everything that went wrong and you guys should cut him some slack and give him time, like they did for us and ROF. There are a lot of Oleg fans out there and rightly so he brought you IL-2 which is great, but he is not a god. Something went wrong and I know a lot of the inside story, but what I said is as much as I want to divulge. The sim development community in Russia is quite small and a lot of what I have posted here is widely known in the Russian sim community. 99.9% of us westerners don't speak Russian so we don't pick up on it.

As for you insuating that the ROF team stole the IL-2 code to make ROF that is a serious charge and is way off base. Over 40 people were hired to make the ROF engine fromscratch and the original investor spent millions of dollars trying to make a sim. Hence, the teething problems some of you refer to. Our engine has nothing to do with IL-2. Originally a small group wanted to make a game using the IL-2 engine, but they didn't like the treatment they received by MG so they went and found a new investor and started everything from scratch. They even dumped the models they had made to make sure they had nothing to do with IL-2. Our engine has made a drastic leap forward in the past 2 years because of the hard #%&*$# work of a small and talented team and a supportive community and nothing else.

Believe me I wanted CLOD to be a huge success and help, along with ROF, WOP and DCS to show the retailers, publishers and potential investors that sims were a resurgent genre, but it's troubles have made that a little more difficult for all of us.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic. Take my words however you want. I have a new update and airplane for ROF to release.

Jason


Edited by 777 Studios - Jason (Yesterday at 10:23 PM)

The part in bold means that there are some out there that know the real deal about what happened from BOB SOW to CLoD (if Jason is 100% right) and it would help shed alot of light telling the truth.

But it also would direct angry gamers at blaming game, which by now is too late.

And maybe they are pulling a MIB (men in black) just so people's reps doesn't get tarnished or the upheaval doesn't drive fans away as it could be some serious lack of good attitude towards the game / fans.

I don't know, its all speculation. It'd just be better if they came out with a official blow by blow, step by step, here's whats happened so far, now here we are hoping to be . . .

Rather than having to pick from sukhoi.ru forums, natural point, ubi, here, sim hq . . .

Ah but what a drama this is turning out to be.



A wish of mine is for Oleg to return and help Luthier and get things back on track but alas . . .

Originally Posted by zapatista

you'r welcome tree


no tree, as usual you cant get things right, even when you have the correct information in front of you and you know better

you bought the game close to euro release time when it was already known to have major problems and was known to be almost unplayable, and you did so DELIBERATELY so you could whine, moan about it (and did so on all the forums you attend for months). you even admitted your motivation for doing so at the time. the joy and glee you expressed at all its problems was somewhat disturbing, at least from an health professionals perspective or the view from any normal forum user.


no tree, that is not something to blame others for, rather funny you even try.

for years and years on all the il2/BoB forums you attend you do exactly the same thing, perpetual petulant whining about oleg, constant criticism about BoB/CoD things you dont understand, putting a negative slant on everything oleg/il2 being said, and deliberately mislead new people who come looking for information. you again did the same thing in this thread with your insults at oleg about him using a sick child in a new conspiracy theory you concocted for the occasion, and the first simpleton who comes along after that steps in your thread turd (as you intended) and drags it all over the forum

that is why you repeatedly get banned here and at several other of the main il2/BoB forums over many years, and you NEVER have changed your motivation for posting or your negative attitude. by knowing your past behavior, observing the current behavior, it is easy to predict your future bans when you DELIBERATELY continue with the same nonsense.



no tree, it isnt, amongst all your other character flaws you have the added inability to process simple information in the right context. what we do know (you know, "facts") is that BoB/CoD from its inception was a more ambitious leap forward because it was more then a "simple flightsim", involving dynamic weather, integration of land/sea/air elements, dynamic campaigns etc, so it never was a simple "3 years and its out the door" project, add to that the 2 delays phases and a relatively low budget for a project this complex, and we landed where we are now.

what if luthier just before release was told "here is another 2 million dollars, just take another 2 years to finish the project correctly up to the standard you need/want", you think he would have said no ?
you think that if oleg last year would have been offered the same option that he wouldnt still be there ?

You haven't got the game yet have you?

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by zapatista

no it isnt what is being implied at all.

in order to participate in a meaningful way you are at least expected to read what others wrote before you, and then make an effort to apply some basic reasoning and logic to the (few) real facts we have. then substract the influence from tree's deliberate thread crapping with misinformation and attitude of "lets blame oleg for everything" , and you'd arrive at the starting point of roughly having a sensible conversation.

You are exactly and precisely implying that code was lost and reused. Perhaps English isn't your first language? Try rereading your post.

And why, if you are trying to have a conversation, do you bring Tree into it? I really can't see the relevance of Tree's postings juxtapostioned with my own. It's a basic logic and reasoning thing.


As for blaming Oleg for everything, well yes. That's what being in charge means, it means taking responsibility for the mistakes and failures of your underlings, and taking the credit and praise for their good work. Again, it's a basic logic and reasoning thing.

How does the game run on your system, and are you satisfied with it?

[Sven]

Thanks Hiro for posting that, it doesn't surprise me however. I do feel very sorry for csThor, he put in all that effort and I would surely be as angry if the same happened to me.

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Tree_UK

You haven't got the game yet have you?

What a pointless question. I didn't expect anything less from you though. Anyways - the real question is what do you expect to change with your behavior or for example with what's going on on simhq, posting all this rubbish?

The game has bugs and other shortcomings, ok. I agree with you there. But then you come here and repeatedly state the same old boring story like 2000 times. If you hate the game so much why did you buy it? Aren't you mature enough to read a review or wait for one? And if you did buy it, play it and critizise it - why don't you do it in a way that actually helps and doesn't just tarnish the reputation of it until it's dead forever? NO game will EVER be perfect and frankly your vision isn't necessarily the one that's best for the game.

Either there are reasons for the situation or the game is just crap. And if it's so crappy then go and make a better one. There's no reason to besiege this forum with negativity just because you were unable to read a review before buying a game that you've been bickering about since... well, in fact since the first post I saw from you.

And also you should know best that it's pointless to do what you're doing. You commonly get similar reactions to your... provocative... posts from those who're actually here to make the best out of the situation not just vent their real life issues. But do you see it as a reason to change?

No, you don't. And I doubt this spam of weird stuff we see here daily will change anything. If you really want this situation to change to a more positive one then stop being negative. Is the 50 bucks your only problem? That's not even half a week worth of food over here in Germany. Don't tell me you're starving from hunger and still have the luxury to spend all your time on internet forums instead of work. I'm sure you'd be able to get over this mistake if you really didn't want the situation to become better - but deep down you want it to become better, don't you?


There's only a few things that we can do as a community that will help. Some of these are for example:

Technical:
*Study IT and after you learned how to programm offer your help coding

*Do extensive testing and technical bug reports

*Have patience. Technical issues often are time consuming if you want to solve them, not just hot-glue or patch them temporarily.

Art:
*Provide detailed rescources or point out individuals, great archives etc. to help the developers create a more athmospheric game.

*Elaborate and discuss art & style topics with the community. After there are reasonable fundamented opinions write up an extensive in-depth report with examples and rescources. Also do not only mention pro's - try to find contra as well to give a more rounded picture (you're probably very good at that).

*UI issues etc. should be resolved by providing flowcharts and sketches

*storyboards could also give the devopers a nice picture of what could be done to improve the game. E.g. a better menu, maps, mission builder layout or whatever.

*also make sure to buy a calibrated monitor before posting about ugly colors or posting pictures. The color debate is a very... weird one. And many of the images I see look questionable on my fully calibrated screens with 10bit LUT.


As for the communication that's coming, or rather NOT coming, from the team - well, I'm also disappointed. But nevertheless. Talking rubbish won't fix that. See above.
There might be more stuff on russian forums that we don't know about. I guess that some guys could help us with updates from such boards. Maybe we can talk to them and eventually they'll help out?


One thing that absolutely DOESN'T help out is opinions like the one on simhq. They did lower their standards by a large amount. Reporting on arcade games and posting such "posts" and "opinions" is proof of that.
Again: it's not helping! All it does is lowering chances of recovery and generally destroying the genre itself. They could've chose other channels first.
You can give a game a bad review, fine. They did. But repeatedly mauling a title down until it's dust won't help anyone. What simhq did was purely unprofessional. If they don't have any content to write about that's one thing - but delivering such blows to a game that's in a bit of trouble does nothing but eventually making sure UBI cancels eventual addon packs and cancels all development once and for all. No further content, no patches, nada. Is that what you want? Then fine, go ahead and give my best regards to the geniuses at simhq responsible for that.

[Buchon]

WowW you guys write nice text walls in this thread

Tree, a question for you :

you like the game?

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Seeker

As for blaming Oleg for everything, well yes. That's what being in charge means, it means taking responsibility for the mistakes and failures of your underlings, and taking the credit and praise for their good work. Again, it's a basic logic and reasoning thing.

How does the game run on your system, and are you satisfied with it?

We don't know if he's responsible. There is a whole lot of background going on behind the scenes. Deals with publishers, models that are being used in multiple projects etc.

I do agree, he is probably the one in charge. But then again: some posters here are so obsessed with pointing out even absolutely laughable flaws, like tracers and other minor stuff, that I begin asking myself if they're all the image of god or if they have been treating their mothers and fathers in the same respectless and rude way for the shortcomings they burdened upon them by giving birth to them?

Not everything is perfect in life - but we'll see new additional content and bug fixes. So if you haven't bought the game yet then don't and wait. If you have just go outside and enjoy the summer while it lasts and avoid all the stress. Maybe we'll get a sunny winter with a better sim when some more patches are out heh?

Originally Posted by Buchon

WowW you guys write nice text walls in this thread

Tree, a question for you :

you like the game?

Yes mate, i do, I fly 3-4 times a week but only online.

[Rattlehead]

Honestly? I think there are people that would like to see this title crash and burn.
I'm not saying it's this person or that person...just that it's a disturbing trend I've picked up not only here, but at SimHQ as well.
There was a poster there, can't remember his name, who was actually really pleased about the poor state the game was in a few months ago.

I don't understand that mentality at all.

Originally Posted by zapatista

you bought the game close to euro release time when it was already known to have major problems and was known to be almost unplayable, and you did so DELIBERATELY so you could whine, moan about it (and did so on all the forums you attend for months). you even admitted your motivation for doing so at the time. the joy and glee you expressed at all its problems was somewhat disturbing, at least from an health professionals perspective or the view from any normal forum user.

I did deliberatley buy the game, that is correct. My joy and glee was not aimed at the state it was in but aimed at the people like your goodself who had rubbished me all through the development process, they could not see what was so painfully obvious and they were absoloutley convinced that Oleg & Luthier were holding back showing us the real CLOD until released. "Its WORK IN PROGRESS they all cried!!" You were one of these short sighted fanboys that were oh so aggresive in defending Oleg, it became your crusade and you simply couldn't see the obvious where as I could. However, despite the flaws (i didn't need to read a review) I purchased the game because i am a true flight sim fan, you didn't buy the game. I do feel sorry for you having been so badly duped, your hero Oleg lost his magic power and you were left holding his flag and it pains you greatly.

Originally Posted by zapatista

your insults at oleg about him using a sick child in a new conspiracy theory you concocted for the occasion, and the first simpleton who comes along after that steps in your thread turd (as you intended) and drags it all over the forum

I think you misunderstood my post, the deception from Luthier was that Oleg couldn't post because his child was ill, where we now know that Oleg couldn't post because he was no longer working on the project. If anything you should be throwing your dummy at Luthier not me.