Spit IIa is now so much more inferior to the 109

[JG52Krupi]

Every book/article I have read points towards the 109 being slightly faster and better at diving and the spit being a slightly better turner.

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by JG52Krupi

The smell of hypocrisy

Every book/article I have read points towards the 109 being slightly faster and better at diving and the spit being a slightly better turner.

Dont belive everything you read in books

I belive more in real life test data then story in books

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Polish pilots from 303SQN taking part in BOB from 31 august 1940 was flying Hurricanes MK1 of course using 100 Octan fuel ( i read their combat raports) and they were the highest score RAF SQN during BOB time. They got also the best kill to death ratio so in experience hand Hurricane was still good fighter plane in BOB time. Expecially when it could use +12 emergency power which make huge difference in low level combats.

I'm quoting this not because i want to reply directly to it, but because it brings up another point that many of us don't think too much about.

As you can see in the last sentence, WEP on RAF fighters was a situational thing. It was mostly a low-altitude advantage and this translates to one of these two things:

1) Scramble and climb to altitude.

2) Dive low and use it to escape.

The reasons it worked like this is that pilots of the time flew differently than us. The fights happened high because of bomber flights, so RAF pilots had to climb fast. Then, because LW pilots had bombers to escort, if an RAF pilot would dive out of the fight, kick it into WEP and leave, a lot of times he would not be followed unless the 109 tailing him could score a quick kill and get back to protecting its bombers.

What we do is different: the RAF putters around at treetop height, the LW is cruising around at optimal fuel economy cruise for hours and BnZ'ing them, but all too often the 109s will drop down, give chase and lose the advantage.

There's nothing wrong with that, because we all want to have fun and get in fights. What's wrong is expecting to see historical outcomes while we are using non-historical tactics.

The easiest way to capture some of what we read in the books is to fix the bombers first. No, i'm not kidding. With the latest testing patches a lot of people can now fly bombers in formation online.

Fixing the rest of the bombers' bugs (they have a few remaining issues with their bombsights) will take things to the next level: more people will fly bombers, which makes fighters have a reason to fly high and stay high.

Then, we have two positive outcomes as a result. First of all, tactics and the situational parameters of the "arena" are closer to real life, so we can make easier comparisons. Second, the good and bad points of all fighter FMs will be exposed through using them in a more structured tactical environment with specific demands.

What we have right now is a lot of gnashing of teeth for now real reason: we can't expect our favorite ride to perform a certain way when we fly it a totally different way. Even if the FMs were 100% accurate, it would not be the same because how you use the FM matters as much as the FM itself.

Currently in the sim, the 109s escort nothing so they are free to range about at 1.2 Ata for more than an hour per sortie and pick their targets, while the Spits and Hurricanes are hugging the trees and hunting squirrels most of the time.

It used to be a bit like that in IL:1946 as well, because the RAF planes are nimble and the temptation to just go and mix it up is great. However, the best and most dangerous Spit pilots i've ever seen while flying IL2:1946 were not the ones who scored 5-6 kills per sortie during a furball on the deck and then got shot down by a Dora that happened to be passing by.

The ones i feared the most when i was flying blue were the ones that flew at altitude and used it like a BnZ plane. It might not be that fast compared to the 51s and 47s, but it was nimbler and climbed very well, allowing it to constantly evade and follow it up with aggressive climbing, retaining its advantage. These pilots didn't score 5+ kills per sortie, but they usually scored 10-15 kills for every time they were shot down, they would very often go in with a disadvantage of 3vs1 and win because they were flying their brains instead of flying only the FM.

[SEE]

Spent most of my time with Alpha issues rather than FM. I can usually out turn any 109 but last night (in the Spit2a) a pair of 109's matched my turns and found my self on the edge. May be its a problem with the revised throttle management and speed. Not sure yet so will try the 1a in case this is specific to the Spit 2a. Trim is better, Mk1's altitude speed better - throttle is porked, and landing friction is on par with Ice even on a 85mph verge of stalling touch down. Whatever, still my preferred choice and just have to get used to any 'quirks'.

[skouras]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Sry to say but SPit MkI or Mk II wasnt slowier then 109 E it was rather opposite. With 100 Octan fuel it was faster at low alts then 109. 109 had litlle adventage in higher alts.

correct..

[SEE]

Just read your post Blackdog, I stick to high alt but it's very quiet except for the occaisional 109 and usually they are pretty damned good. I think Krupi followed me down in his 109 as I was RTB to Hawkinge (in a 1a) and it performed pretty well at low alt but for me, low alt furballs are the quickest way to gain altitude - to a vacant cloud and a golden Harp lol! Game Performance is so much better at altitude as well.....

[MB_Avro_UK]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I'm quoting this not because i want to reply directly to it, but because it brings up another point that many of us don't think too much about.

As you can see in the last sentence, WEP on RAF fighters was a situational thing. It was mostly a low-altitude advantage and this translates to one of these two things:

1) Scramble and climb to altitude.

2) Dive low and use it to escape.

The reasons it worked like this is that pilots of the time flew differently than us. The fights happened high because of bomber flights, so RAF pilots had to climb fast. Then, because LW pilots had bombers to escort, if an RAF pilot would dive out of the fight, kick it into WEP and leave, a lot of times he would not be followed unless the 109 tailing him could score a quick kill and get back to protecting its bombers.

What we do is different: the RAF putters around at treetop height, the LW is cruising around at optimal fuel economy cruise for hours and BnZ'ing them, but all too often the 109s will drop down, give chase and lose the advantage.

There's nothing wrong with that, because we all want to have fun and get in fights. What's wrong is expecting to see historical outcomes while we are using non-historical tactics.

The easiest way to capture some of what we read in the books is to fix the bombers first. No, i'm not kidding. With the latest testing patches a lot of people can now fly bombers in formation online.

Fixing the rest of the bombers' bugs (they have a few remaining issues with their bombsights) will take things to the next level: more people will fly bombers, which makes fighters have a reason to fly high and stay high.

Then, we have two positive outcomes as a result. First of all, tactics and the situational parameters of the "arena" are closer to real life, so we can make easier comparisons. Second, the good and bad points of all fighter FMs will be exposed through using them in a more structured tactical environment with specific demands.

What we have right now is a lot of gnashing of teeth for now real reason: we can't expect our favorite ride to perform a certain way when we fly it a totally different way. Even if the FMs were 100% accurate, it would not be the same because how you use the FM matters as much as the FM itself.

Currently in the sim, the 109s escort nothing so they are free to range about at 1.2 Ata for more than an hour per sortie and pick their targets, while the Spits and Hurricanes are hugging the trees and hunting squirrels most of the time.

It used to be a bit like that in IL:1946 as well, because the RAF planes are nimble and the temptation to just go and mix it up is great. However, the best and most dangerous Spit pilots i've ever seen while flying IL2:1946 were not the ones who scored 5-6 kills per sortie during a furball on the deck and then got shot down by a Dora that happened to be passing by.

The ones i feared the most when i was flying blue were the ones that flew at altitude and used it like a BnZ plane. It might not be that fast compared to the 51s and 47s, but it was nimbler and climbed very well, allowing it to constantly evade and follow it up with aggressive climbing, retaining its advantage. These pilots didn't score 5+ kills per sortie, but they usually scored 10-15 kills for every time they were shot down, they would very often go in with a disadvantage of 3vs1 and win because they were flying their brains instead of flying only the FM.

A very good post.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[Basha]

Im glad you mentioned the landing SEE i thought my speed was to high coming in but as you say its like ice.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by ReconNZ

Why play red at all?

I was just in a dog fight online in a IIa getting boomed and zoomed by a 109 - he had 30 - 40% more lift and speed on me on every sweep past and he just flew away from me everytime. Seriously, there is no way that is historically correct.

What?

So this 109 had an alt advantage on you and your supirsed he was able to boom and zoom you? It does NOT get more historical than that!

[SEE]

Originally Posted by Basha

Im glad you mentioned the landing SEE i thought my speed was to high coming in but as you say its like ice.

I bleed of airspeed using a turning approach with (Prop Pitch set to kill RPM if necessary) and touch down at around 85/90Mph, once that speedo is registering zilch I apply full rudder and tap the brakes to stop nose over - job done but it does feel like a friction problem combined with a throttle bug. If you pancake with wheels up it slides far too long!