Bomber boys - bbc one

[bongodriver]

It's like the whole Falklands thing, I mean, really? It's 2012, let go of the ba$tard islands, you made your point in 1982. Most people don't even know that the Malvinas were given to Argentina from Spain in 1811, but in typical British Empire fashion, the soldiers got there, planted a flag and said "well it's ours now". The all British self-importance in foreign policies and history is at times anachronistic and ludicrous, and it's what does more damage to the British image abroad than anything else.

Ok you go and explain that to the people that live there, and if we 'proved a point' in 82 then what would be the point of so readily capitulating now? is the Falklands issue purely caused by the British?.....I don't think so, what exactly is the difference in Argentina laying a claim as opposed to the British?

And.....could it be that you are actually unwilling to be thrown into the lot and expect a more fair and individual judgement?

Absolutely.....the same way we have to appreciate that modern Germans have nothing to do with the Nazis, I expect not to be judged by an isolated element of my country.

Apart from you taking out only a single argument instead of answering to the whole, yes, you are exporting them.

Much like you used a single quote to sum up the entire British mentality....see quote below.

U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

On a sidenote it is darkly amusing to see the attempts of the nations between the wars to ban deliberate attacks on the civilian population ... and to see which nations deliberately torpedoed any such attempts. Can you guess? Yes, the USA (which at the time of the last attempt was about to roll out the prototype of the B-17) and the United Kingdom (which had used aerial attacks on civilian settlements in "colonial warfare" already). But all of that is history now ...

Hello Thor. What is perhaps even more 'darkly amusing' is to hear Germans waxing lyrical about the 'morality' or otherwise of deliberately and knowingly bombing civilians, a field of endevour that a certain country were quite the originators of and 'experten' in.....dating back to the Zeppelin terror raids of WWI. Thor, 'can you guess' who this country was?

British towns and cities, including areas as diverse as Liverpool, the Midlands, my very own Tyneside and nearby Sunderland and even Edinburgh were attacked* with fragmentation bombs and incendiary devices, burning women and children alive and injuring many more. Zeppelin bombing was of course effectively indiscriminate by its very nature.

Perhaps then, it is no surprise when British people are quite dismissive of German lectures on 'morality', seeing them as at best frankly risible.

Murdering and burning UK civilians alive with incendiary's tends to make people a wee bit angry, this tends to result in a desire for retribution. 'An eye for an eye', and all that.

These quotes are all primary sources from the Imperial War Museum and National Archives.


'‘When [the Germans] injure innocent… people they… proclaim it as a great victory and that they have struck terror into the English people in London… Well I can only say this, that it has had the effect of making the Londoners… more determined than ever that the GermHun power shall not only be beaten but ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED out of existence.’ [1]

‘We saw a Zepp the other night… To see the blasted bombs being dropped on helpless civilians and on peaceable houses made the blood go to fever heat and I felt absolutely mad.’ [1]

Journalist J. H. Stapley writing on 5 October 1915 to a friend at the Front

‘Mourners tonight will leave the side of their dead to look into the sky fearfully.
Little children who have… gone to sleep will be awakened and rushed into cellars to save them from death.’

~American journalist William G. Shepherd’s account of London’s third airship raid

During the spring of 1915, Hauptmann Erich Linnarz, captain of Zeppelin LZ38, dropped on Southend (along with his bombs) a placard on which he had written a cryptic message:

'You English. We have come, and will come again soon.

Kill or cure. German.'

These charming German 'love letters' forecasting the English peoples complete annihilation were commonplace. Terribly rum bunch these Huns, What?

Of course, later came the Gotha bomber formation raids en masse causing yet more death and destruction; strategic raids on central London and elsewhere, causing massive damage and killing and maiming many Civilians. Perhaps then, in this light it is understandable that Britain might not have wanted to preclude the possibility of retaliatory strikes against the civilian population of an aggressor, in case it happened again.

Oh wait.....turns out* it actually did! As sure as night follows day. Good call! Didn't see that one coming. Can any member of the class remind me who it was again?

Guernica, the Condor Legion strafing and bombing refugee columns of women and children for 'target practice' for the upcoming war for more 'Lebensraum' and Teutonic world domination, starting the most destructive conflict the world has ever seen (even outdoing the previously gruesome effort) ; civilian bombing of Warsaw, threatening to wipe the cities of the Netherlands off the map unless they surrendered, the list goes on. Not a leg to stand on, sorry......In terms of 'morality', so leave it out please.

If Germany had the capability to erase every British City from the planet, they would have done so without a moments hesitation, or a seconds thought....with no remorse. Fact. So the tragic 'violin tune' doesn't really cut it, nor will it elicit too much (worldwide) sympathy, I'm afraid. Maybe they did not understand that their actions would have such terrible repercussions and that they were not 'invincible'.....and maybe they should have 'thought things through' before embarking on their world domination 'jolly'.

What happened was terrible. War is terrible. That is all.

[JG53Frankyboy]

i am german , and i can understand EVERY allied effort to defeat the german nation that was let by the Nazis during this time. War , and even more WW2 , was no kindergartenparty.
My father was attacked as a 8 yearvold boy walkingbon a fieldway by a low flying allied fighter, luckily he survived. But he has no bad feelings about that, neither me.

Fortunatly the allies won that war for 'us' !

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Ok you go and explain that to the people that live there, and if we 'proved a point' in 82 then what would be the point of so readily capitulating now? is the Falklands issue purely caused by the British?.....I don't think so, what exactly is the difference in Argentina laying a claim as opposed to the British?

the best move would be to declare the independence of the Islands, it would relax foreign relations and be an example that Great Britain could use in further diplomatic situations.
In theory Argentina has more of a right than Britain to own the islands because of historical and obvious geographical reasons, the British colonisation of the island doesn't justify for its sovereignty. Or shall we let a few thousand people decide for the foreign policy of a country? Truth is that the area has a lot of potential in terms of oil drilling, that's why none of the sides wants to let go of it.

Absolutely.....the same way we have to appreciate that modern Germans have nothing to do with the Nazis, I expect not to be judged by an isolated element of my country.

isolated element? War banter is common to every layer of British society mate, from working class low income football fans to Prince Harry..

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

On a sidenote it is darkly amusing to see the attempts of the nations between the wars to ban deliberate attacks on the civilian population ... and to see which nations deliberately torpedoed any such attempts. Can you guess? Yes, the USA (which at the time of the last attempt was about to roll out the prototype of the B-17) and the United Kingdom (which had used aerial attacks on civilian settlements in "colonial warfare" already). But all of that is history now ...

Hello Thor. What is perhaps even more 'darkly amusing' is to hear Germans waxing lyrical about the 'morality' or otherwise of deliberately and knowingly bombing civilians, a field of endevour that a certain country were quite the originators of and 'experten' in.....dating back to the Zeppelin terror raids of WWI. Thor, 'can you guess' who this country was?

British towns and cities, including areas as diverse as Liverpool, the Midlands, my very own Tyneside and nearby Sunderland and even Edinburgh were attacked* with fragmentation bombs and incendiary devices, burning women and children alive and injuring many more. Zeppelin bombing was of course effectively indiscriminate by its very nature.

Perhaps then, it is no surprise when British people are quite dismissive of German lectures on 'morality', seeing them as at best frankly risible.

Murdering and burning UK civilians alive with incendiary's tends to make people a wee bit angry, this tends to result in a desire for retribution. 'An eye for an eye', and all that.

These quotes are all primary sources from the Imperial War Museum and National Archives.


'‘When [the Germans] injure innocent… people they… proclaim it as a great victory and that they have struck terror into the English people in London… Well I can only say this, that it has had the effect of making the Londoners… more determined than ever that the GermHun power shall not only be beaten but ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED out of existence.’ [1]

‘We saw a Zepp the other night… To see the blasted bombs being dropped on helpless civilians and on peaceable houses made the blood go to fever heat and I felt absolutely mad.’ [1]

Journalist J. H. Stapley writing on 5 October 1915 to a friend at the Front

‘Mourners tonight will leave the side of their dead to look into the sky fearfully.
Little children who have… gone to sleep will be awakened and rushed into cellars to save them from death.’

~American journalist William G. Shepherd’s account of London’s third airship raid

During the spring of 1915, Hauptmann Erich Linnarz, captain of Zeppelin LZ38, dropped on Southend (along with his bombs) a placard on which he had written a cryptic message:

'You English. We have come, and will come again soon.

Kill or cure. German.'

These charming German 'love letters' forecasting the English peoples complete annihilation were commonplace. Terribly rum bunch these Huns, What?

Of course, later came the Gotha bomber formation raids en masse causing yet more death and destruction; strategic raids on central London and elsewhere, causing massive damage and killing and maiming many Civilians. Perhaps then, in this light it is understandable that Britain might not have wanted to preclude the possibility of retaliatory strikes against the civilian population of an aggressor, in case it happened again.

Oh wait.....turns out* it actually did! As sure as night follows day. Good call! Didn't see that one coming. Can any member of the class remind me who it was again?

Guernica, the Condor Legion strafing and bombing refugee columns of women and children for 'target practice' for the upcoming war for more 'Lebensraum' and Teutonic world domination, starting the most destructive conflict the world has ever seen (even outdoing the previously gruesome effort) ; civilian bombing of Warsaw, threatening to wipe the cities of the Netherlands off the map unless they surrendered, the list goes on. Not a leg to stand on, sorry......In terms of 'morality', so leave it out please.

If Germany had the capability to erase every British City from the planet, they would have done so without a moments hesitation, or a seconds thought....with no remorse. Fact. So the tragic 'violin tune' doesn't really cut it, nor will it elicit too much (worldwide) sympathy, I'm afraid. Maybe they did not understand that their actions would have such terrible repercussions and that they were not 'invincible'.....and maybe they should have 'thought things through' before embarking on their world domination 'jolly'.

What happened was terrible. War is terrible. That is all.

whilst I completely agree with all that you said, I would like to point out that it's not the point of the discussion. Nobody here reckons that one was better or worse than the other, it's the celebration of it that is out of place.
How would you feel if in Berlin they had a statue of Hermann Goering or the general behind the Zeppelin/Gotha raids? Regardless of the outcome of the war, they were all fighting for their own country, doing their duty, so what makes them worse than Harris (apart for the fact that they were fighting for the wrong cause, which again is only relevant to who actually wins the war)?

[csThor]

Orville

I am in no way denying that Germany also had a part in all of this bloodshed (bombing civilian targets, that is) but I simply refuse to engage in pontificating that "my allied raids on civilian targets are less inhuman than your axis raids on civilian targets" and the attempts to retroactively glorify a strategy that did not only cost seveal hundred thousands of civilian lives but also the lives of over 50000 british aircrew for a complete lack of results.

And I am sure I could find quotes from the german perspective that dance to the same tune as yours, just from the other side, but that would not help anything and merely stir up more discord. In my opinion the use of air power to deliberately attack and destroy purely civilian targets for any kind of reason and from any nation was a despicable act of atrocity. Period.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

the best move would be to declare the independence of the Islands, it would relax foreign relations and be an example that Great Britain could use in further diplomatic situations.
In theory Argentina has more of a right than Britain to own the islands because of historical and obvious geographical reasons, the British colonisation of the island doesn't justify for its sovereignty. Or shall we let a few thousand people decide for the foreign policy of a country? Truth is that the area has a lot of potential in terms of oil drilling, that's why none of the sides wants to let go of it..

Ok you explain that to the people that live there (they really do matter)

in terms of who has a right to whatever........Argentina should belong to the local indigenous tribes.....oh wait....they're all dead because of Spanish colonisation.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

isolated element? War banter is common to every layer of British society mate, from working class low income football fans to Prince Harry..

BS.....pure and simple, Brit bashing is just 'en vogue' for some reason, any 'war banter' that happens here is no different to the 'roast beefs' or 'crazy tea drinkers' banter that everyone else indulges in.

I love the way your topics always involve a 'I love the UK....but'

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by RCAF_FB_Orville

On a sidenote it is darkly amusing to see the attempts of the nations between the wars to ban deliberate attacks on the civilian population ... and to see which nations deliberately torpedoed any such attempts. Can you guess? Yes, the USA (which at the time of the last attempt was about to roll out the prototype of the B-17) and the United Kingdom (which had used aerial attacks on civilian settlements in "colonial warfare" already). But all of that is history now ...

Hello Thor. What is perhaps even more 'darkly amusing' is to hear Germans waxing lyrical about the 'morality' or otherwise of deliberately and knowingly bombing civilians, a field of endevour that a certain country were quite the originators of and 'experten' in.....dating back to the Zeppelin terror raids of WWI. Thor, 'can you guess' who this country was?

British towns and cities, including areas as diverse as Liverpool, the Midlands, my very own Tyneside and nearby Sunderland and even Edinburgh were attacked* with fragmentation bombs and incendiary devices, burning women and children alive and injuring many more. Zeppelin bombing was of course effectively indiscriminate by its very nature.

Perhaps then, it is no surprise when British people are quite dismissive of German lectures on 'morality', seeing them as at best frankly risible.

Murdering and burning UK civilians alive with incendiary's tends to make people a wee bit angry, this tends to result in a desire for retribution. 'An eye for an eye', and all that.

These quotes are all primary sources from the Imperial War Museum and National Archives.


'‘When [the Germans] injure innocent… people they… proclaim it as a great victory and that they have struck terror into the English people in London… Well I can only say this, that it has had the effect of making the Londoners… more determined than ever that the GermHun power shall not only be beaten but ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED out of existence.’ [1]

‘We saw a Zepp the other night… To see the blasted bombs being dropped on helpless civilians and on peaceable houses made the blood go to fever heat and I felt absolutely mad.’ [1]

Journalist J. H. Stapley writing on 5 October 1915 to a friend at the Front

‘Mourners tonight will leave the side of their dead to look into the sky fearfully.
Little children who have… gone to sleep will be awakened and rushed into cellars to save them from death.’

~American journalist William G. Shepherd’s account of London’s third airship raid

During the spring of 1915, Hauptmann Erich Linnarz, captain of Zeppelin LZ38, dropped on Southend (along with his bombs) a placard on which he had written a cryptic message:

'You English. We have come, and will come again soon.

Kill or cure. German.'

These charming German 'love letters' forecasting the English peoples complete annihilation were commonplace. Terribly rum bunch these Huns, What?

Of course, later came the Gotha bomber formation raids en masse causing yet more death and destruction; strategic raids on central London and elsewhere, causing massive damage and killing and maiming many Civilians. Perhaps then, in this light it is understandable that Britain might not have wanted to preclude the possibility of retaliatory strikes against the civilian population of an aggressor, in case it happened again.

Oh wait.....turns out* it actually did! As sure as night follows day. Good call! Didn't see that one coming. Can any member of the class remind me who it was again?

Guernica, the Condor Legion strafing and bombing refugee columns of women and children for 'target practice' for the upcoming war for more 'Lebensraum' and Teutonic world domination, starting the most destructive conflict the world has ever seen (even outdoing the previously gruesome effort) ; civilian bombing of Warsaw, threatening to wipe the cities of the Netherlands off the map unless they surrendered, the list goes on. Not a leg to stand on, sorry......In terms of 'morality', so leave it out please.

If Germany had the capability to erase every British City from the planet, they would have done so without a moments hesitation, or a seconds thought....with no remorse. Fact. So the tragic 'violin tune' doesn't really cut it, nor will it elicit too much (worldwide) sympathy, I'm afraid. Maybe they did not understand that their actions would have such terrible repercussions and that they were not 'invincible'.....and maybe they should have 'thought things through' before embarking on their world domination 'jolly'.

What happened was terrible. War is terrible. That is all.

Guys, what you do not get here is that you are not talking to people that participated in or supported that war. On the opposite, this one and all generations since the war actually tried everything possible to make good on it. So giving us quotes and plans from germans from generations before the war does not stick.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

I just found the perfect quote illustrating the whole problem:
U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs.

The most beautiful definition of what is 'Victor's Justice'! Thanks for sharing that Bewolf.

I am speechless by the exchange of arguments in this thread. I keep my opinion to myself as this is a flight sim forum and not a political history or war history discussion forum.

But I wonder how many of you gentlemen posting these bold statements in the thread, have actually watched the documentary, all the way to the end of it!



~S~

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

the best move would be to declare the independence of the Islands, it would relax foreign relations and be an example that Great Britain could use in further diplomatic situations.
In theory Argentina has more of a right than Britain to own the islands because of historical and obvious geographical reasons, the British colonisation of the island doesn't justify for its sovereignty. Or shall we let a few thousand people decide for the foreign policy of a country? Truth is that the area has a lot of potential in terms of oil drilling, that's why none of the sides wants to let go of it.


isolated element? War banter is common to every layer of British society mate, from working class low income football fans to Prince Harry..

Must disagree here. The Argies do the same things the british do, claiming something on the grounds of their forefathers. Fact is, however, that the Falklands have been british for ages and belong to a fomerly uninhabited island. It's always about people and what they call their home, and if these people feel british, and obviously they do, then it is their own chosing to stay there and within the UK. Neither Britian nor Argentina ought to have a say in the descisions of the people living there. And those you can't blame or steal their homes for the mistakes and maybe criminal behaviour of some admirals several generations ago.