4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[GROHOT]

Well, when I see new movie from 4.13 I wanted bombing any object.... BOMBING, BOMBING AND BOMBING!!! (Like "Learning, learning and one more time lerning" (c) Vladimir Lenin)

[ThePilot4ever]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Very cool! Lots of minor much asked for changes. Thank you!

As an additional idea, since it is now possible to drop/shoot single rockets, bombs or torpedos, would it be possible to have failure to release?

That is, faulty triggers to fire rockets, or faulty release mechanisms for bombs and torpedoes.

I agree. Maybe even parachute failures to spice things up.

[gaunt1]

Thank you for your hard work TD!

The new bomb release modes are awesome, a feature that was really missing until now!

[Jami]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

1) Make it so they don't lead their targets at all, start shooting at twice the appropriate range, and make sure that their cone of dispersion (or whatever) is 25-50% greater than Rookie level AI.

2) Give them virtually no spotting ability outside their 315-45 degree forward arc (i.e., anything outside of 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock).

3) Give them a 2-3 second delay in responding defensively to attacks from behind.

4) In combat, they use the pre-4.12 Rookie AI model. Additionally, they will only use horizontal "turn and burn" tactics, regularly using energy-bleeding high speed turns that result in loss of airspeed and high speed stalls.

This is just how human rookies behave when they start IL-2 combat flights. I've seen this during last three months when two new members joined our squadron. They are quite helpless against rookie AI pilots in 4.12. This is also just like the air combat descriptions you can find in the memoirs of WWII fighter pilots aces. I have read several english, japanese, german, french and finnish books of them.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

SEP 39-42

DE total flight hours: 240 hours
DE total operational flight hours (fighter): 90 hours
UK total flight hours: 200 hours
UK total operational flight hours (fighter): 50 hours

OCT 42 - JUN 43

DE tot.: 200 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 50 h
UK tot.: 340 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 275
US tot. ops (ftr): 75 h

JUL 43- JUN 44
DE tot.: 175 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 20 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 325 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 120 h

JUL 44- MAY 45
DE tot.: 120 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 10 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 90 h
US tot: 390 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 170 h

This training hour information is interesting - many thanks for it. I think it can be used with human rookie IL-2 pilots, too. After 200-300 flight hours a human rookie may reach the limit of average - I think.

So if DT would take the skill levels of AI pilots under new consideration it would be great news for human IL-2 rookies and for us who like to build realistic missions of WWII air combats.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Jami

This is just how human rookies behave when they start IL-2 combat flights.

Exactly why I proposed them! It's good to know that IL2 rookie pilots behave just like their historical predecessors. It certainly speaks to the sim's accuracy in terms of flight and gunnery models. Lucky for IL2 rookies that death, injury or capture is just a temporary inconvenience![/quote]

Originally Posted by Jami

This training hour information is interesting - many thanks for it. I think it can be used with human rookie IL-2 pilots, too. After 200-300 flight hours a human rookie may reach the limit of average - I think.

I disagree, a IL2 rookie gets much more time in combat and much more gunnery practice so their combat skills advance much more quickly. Remember, that for real pilots, most "combat flight hours" are spent traveling to and from the combat zone. Combat time is very short - perhaps as little as 2-3 minutes long. "Dogfights which last 10 minutes or more are very rare and generally only occur when you have a single combat between two highly skilled pilots.

By contrast, an IL2 novice who just sets up QMB mission after QMB mission and does nothing but practice combat techniques is going to have Average or even Veteran level gunnery and bombing skills after just a few hours of play. SA might still be crummy and landing, takeoff, navigation and formation flying skills will be shaky at best, but at least they will be able to fight!

Combat sim pilots who have been flying realistically in online settings for over a decade will have combat skills far better than most historical aces. If you could transport the best of this bunch back to 1915 or 1939, assuming they had the physical and emotional fitness to actually fly combat missions, they would quickly become leading aces.

As for mission building. Here is are rules of thumb that I've read for skill levels and which I use to design missions:

Rookie - Straight from training. Regardless of the number of flight hours they have, their Situational Awareness and ability to perform in combat are untested. They will be at the bottom level of statistical effectiveness with their weapons (1-2% hits by gunners, 10-25% accuracy for level bombing)

An experienced pilot just converting to a very different type of aircraft might also start at this level unless they have extensive combat experience. For example, a bomber pilot's SA isn't going to be nearly as good since has learned to rely on other crew to keep a lookout for enemy planes and he hasn't had to engage in dogfighting.

Average - 5 combat missions. Improved SA, demonstrated ability to cope with combat conditions. I'm not sure what the loss rates are from Rookie to Average, but a significant number of combat pilots don't make it. They're either found unfit for combat and are relegated to other duties, or they get killed, crippled or captured during one of their early missions. Combat veterans with experience in other types of planes (e.g., a fighter pilot converted to bombers or vice-versa) usually start at this level, although there are some gaps in skills.

Veteran - 25-50 combat missions, depending on intensity of combat. Further improvements in SA and combat skills. At this level, however, many combat aircrew will start to show psychological deterioration due to onset of PTSD, especially in units where there are heavy casualties. Historically, there was also significant attrition of aircrew (10%+) before the survivors attained this level of skill. Fighter pilots at this level will have shot down at least one plane. Attack pilots will have destroyed multiple ground targets. Gunners and bombardiers are at the maximum level of statistical effectiveness (5% hits for gunners, 50-90% bombing accuracy for level bombers). Most aircrew will top out at this level.

Ace - As for Veteran, but this level should be reserved for fighter and attack pilots who show an unusual level of aggression, skill and situational awareness that places them in the top 5% of combat pilots. Bombardiers, bomber pilots, navigators and gunners shouldn't advance to this level unless they are somehow "legendary." For argument, let's say this level applies to the top 5% for bombardiers and gunners.

Fighter pilots will have destroyed at least 3 planes (historically 5% of all fighter pilots claimed over 40% of enemy planes destroyed, but many potential aces were kept from getting 5+ planes by lack of targets. Viz. some late WW2 U.S. pilots who didn't make ace status during that war, but went on to become aces in Korea). Their gunnery, flying and bombing skills won't be any better than Veteran, but they have a higher level of Situational Awareness and tactical ability that sets them apart from the rest.

[Jami]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

A IL2 rookie gets much more time in combat and much more gunnery practice so their combat skills advance much more quickly. Remember, that for real pilots, most "combat flight hours" are spent traveling to and from the combat zone. Combat time is very short - perhaps as little as 2-3 minutes long. "Dogfights which last 10 minutes or more are very rare and generally only occur when you have a single combat between two highly skilled pilots.

Yes, I agree.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

By contrast, an IL2 novice who just sets up QMB mission after QMB mission and does nothing but practice combat techniques is going to have Average or even Veteran level gunnery and bombing skills after just a few hours of play. SA might still be crummy and landing, takeoff, navigation and formation flying skills will be shaky at best, but at least they will be able to fight.

I think here you are too optimistic (...just a few hours of play...). According to my own experiece of flying IL-2 and monitoring the "fighter pilot careers" of my friends it'll take a bit more, but I might have been a little bit pessimistic. I agree that they can fight after few hours of practise, but they'll lose most of their dogfights.
I agree the rest what you say concerning real human pilots of WWII.

[shelby]

Originally Posted by SaQSoN

The story behind He-177...

I hope this group of fans will sponsor someday He177a1 nad he177a5

Originally Posted by SaQSoN

Finally, about jet era planes. DT memebers believe, that this topic does not belong to the WWII simulation and should be kept apart, may be in a new game, or in a separate installation, even using IL-2 engine. However, DT members do not have posibility, time and desire to support more then one game at a time. So we would gladly leave it for others.

Are the DT members have the willingness to model some piston engine planes of the year 1946?

[=FPS=Salsero]

At the moment the level bombers are probably the most handicaped pilots.
While aiming - they cannot see anything. They have to have the prinded-out bombing tables and conversion handy; and mph/kmh tables as well, plus they hardly can see any terrain. The navigator position in TB-3 was actually PRAISED for a good visibility from it -- all-round and extensive bottom glazing. In game it looks and feels more like flying in a tank - you can not look out, and most of the screen is the interior of a navigator's cabin. The same applies for of most other bombers, by the way.

Maybe there is a possibility to make a navigator workplace to look something like below - with most info at hand, and a possibility in an instant to switch from a bomsight view to the navigation view. And the full set of bombsight controls, so the navigator is not forced to memorize lots of keys.

[Luno13]

I think having the map and tables would be nice, but the widescreen view seems excessive and could affect performance for some (rendering two views).

Anyway, I just want to mention that you guys are doing a great job once again. The planes, cockpits, and objects look fantastic and the bomb settings are really useful.

[major.kudo]

Originally Posted by Jami

SEP 39-42

DE total flight hours: 240 hours
DE total operational flight hours (fighter): 90 hours
UK total flight hours: 200 hours
UK total operational flight hours (fighter): 50 hours

OCT 42 - JUN 43

DE tot.: 200 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 50 h
UK tot.: 340 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 275
US tot. ops (ftr): 75 h

JUL 43- JUN 44
DE tot.: 175 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 20 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 325 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 120 h

JUL 44- MAY 45
DE tot.: 120 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 10 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 90 h
US tot: 390 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 170 h

In 1941, average IJN pilots were flying over 800h before first air combat.
They think that is "Average".
But in 1944, average Japanese navy's pilots are fling only 200h before first air combat.
Kamikaze's crew also had the pilot of less than 200h.

Originally Posted by Jami

I'm American. I don't speak a word of Japanese. There's no need to apologize for having the courage to use a foreign language.

I got courage, thanks to you.
However, English is difficult for me.
So, in the Future, difficult things will draw with a picture.
For example,
this.
http://gachopin.no-ip.info/kudo/Fighter_2.jpg

Originally Posted by =FPS=Salsero

At the moment the level bombers are probably the most handicaped pilots.

I hope this.
http://gachopin.no-ip.info/kudo/bombardier.jpg
I want to play this in mltiplayer games.