Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The fact the RAF did not complete conversion to 100 Octane until around January 1940 is evident in the Operating Notes.

The documentation is posted and been posted several times.

No it hasn't been posted:

Please show documentation that the RAF was only interested in operational trials

Can you not see a genuine problem in telling some of your frontline pilots it was okay to use 100 Octane plus 12 lbs boost in an emergency, while telling the majority "sorry chaps, can't use it, tough luck?"

Therefore, provide some documentation proving that pilots engaged in frontline operations were discouraged from using 100 Octane fuel.

Was there enough 100 octane fuel available to allow all operational frontline units to fly all defensive sorties flown throughout the battle - yes or no? If no why not - with documentation.

Provide some documentation showing that the reserves of 100 octane were considered far too low to be used.

Otherwise everything you say is pure, unsupported conjecture and speculation, based on your wishful thinking that RAF wartime operations can be analysed by comparing them with modern peacetime civilian operational standards.

[Osprey]

Yeah of course it is. It's like buying a DVD player isn't it. You get your instruction manual as part of the package and it does what it says in the instructions.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

What I said is what I see in all the documentation posted in this thread.


It is a fact the RAF did not complete conversion to 100 Octane until around January 1940. That is evident in the Operating Notes.

Meaning what you want to see in all the documentation posted;

but you have completely neglected answering some key questions such as how your "16 Squadrons" got through 52,000 tons of 100 Octane in just a few months of operational trials. Can you explain this at all, with supporting evidence?

The rest of your hypothesis is still just unsupported speculation.

[Crumpp]

Meaning what you want to see in all the documentation posted;

No, there is no hypothesis. Anyone who knows how aviation handbooks work by convention will say the same thing.

It is a fact the RAF did not complete conversion to 100 Octane until around January 1940. That is evident in the Operating Notes.

[Crumpp]

Can you not see a genuine problem in telling some of your frontline pilots it was okay to use 100 Octane plus 12 lbs boost in an emergency, while telling the majority "sorry chaps, can't use it, tough luck?"

Obviously, you have never been in the Military. It happens every time a new piece of equipment is introduced.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Why would you do that Glider? I don't think anyone is saying that.

What would be worth it to do is change the fuel type when the units rotated out for rest and refit. They are not doing any operational flying under that status and unless they had an additional mission to gather data on the fuels use, there is no reason to continue to use 100 Octane. I am sure maintenance trend data over as many hours of flight time was required before the entire force converted but you don't need it from every squadron.

Crumpps steps to conversion.....

If I wanted to convert and it was not possible to convert the entire force, the first thing I would do is get as much 100 Octane gas to the airfields as I could before anyone converted. Then my conversion pool has a supply of gas.

The next thing I would do is convert as many squadrons as possible to be able to use 100 Octane. That timeline is going to be based on how fast the parts required can enter the system and reach the point of use. I would convert as many aircraft as possible without violating the required logistical ratio so my airplanes can continue to fly and I am not without airplanes due to maintenance awaiting parts. Now I have pool of capable aircraft.

As much as possible all of my operational squadrons using 100 Octane would be down in 11 Group in the thick of the action.

If logistics said I only had enough fuel for 16 squadrons by September then you can bet when a squadron rotated out for rest and refit, they would go back to 87 Octane and their replacement would come from that pool of converted units.

As logistics increased my usable fuel supply, I would add operational squadrons to other areas until the entire force was converted.

I don't know the exact figures.. It's late..But
If you were in a Squadron you were operational. End of. No matter which Group you were part of.

If you read Bungays Most Dangerous Enemy he gives figures for the number of reserve (or non-operational) Aircraft that the RAF had. It is quite a large number and it was kept at an almost constant level for the duration of the BoB.

There was no rest and refit. Except where a squadron had been decimated.

They were simply rotated to less busy groups. All of the RAF's fighter groups were "operational" they were all involved in combat throughout. There were raids on Glasgow, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Southampton, Newcastle, Coventry, Wolverhampton ... I could go on.

Please don't try and tell me 9,10,11,12,13 or 14 Group were not operational. They were.

You're basically saying that seasoned fighter pilots were told that they no longer needed 100 octane because they were part of 14 group?
You expect me to believe that they sat on thier airfield and said "Jerry's not coming today boys.. better fill up with 87 octane"
No way. The most important factor for interception is how fast you can get some altitude (the only real advantage of 100 octane)

100 octanes importance has nothing to do with the unrealistic turning fights depicted in CloD and how it affected the chances against a 109. It was about getting up there where the bombers were. It is stupid to assume that because they were no longer in the south east that this factor changed.

It may well be that OTU's were running on 87, but...
I'd like someone to find me a fighter squadron that was non operational during the BoB.

[Crumpp]

But if you were in a Squadron you were operational.

NO, almost every military cycle their units especially during wartime. All units need time to rest, refit, and train as well as perform other administrative duties as required.

In the United State Army for example, you have green, amber, and red cycles. Red is downtime for rest, refit, and administrative duties like funeral details and post clean up. Amber is training time and preparation for becoming an operational unit. Green is operational.

Dowding definitely cycled Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain.

There was no rest and refit.

No, there was a rotation and squadrons were allowed to rest and refit.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

No, there is no hypothesis. Anyone who knows how aviation handbooks work by convention will say the same thing.

It is a fact the RAF did not complete conversion to 100 Octane until around January 1940. That is evident in the Operating Notes.

Once again, please explain how 16 squadrons got through over 50,000 tons of aviation fuel in just a few months of "operational trials". documentation, not your speculation.

Please show us that the RAF was only interested in "Operational Trials" at a time when the country was facing full scale air assault - documentation, not your speculation.

[Crumpp]

It's like buying a DVD player isn't it. You get your instruction manual as part of the package and it does what it says in the instructions.

Not really other than both come with instructions. Nobody cares if you don't follow the instructions on your DvD player.

In Aviation, not following the publications carries the weight of law.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

NO, almost every military cycle their units especially during wartime. All units need time to rest, refit, and train as well as perform other administrative duties as required.

You are wrong.

Find me one example of an RAF fighter Squadron that was rested, pulled out of the front line for training, or for 'administration purposes' during the Battle of Britian. The only reason a squadron was 'rested' was because most of the pilots were dead.

They were not being rotated out for the reasons you state. They were moved to another active group. Almost without exception.

Just because you say it happened dosn't mean it did. Read Al Deers account of what hapened to his squadron, or Pete Brothers or Geoff Wellum or Baders, or Lane or Hillary or Viggors or Page or Malan or Townsend or Dundas. I've read them all and none of them were made non operational during the Battle of Britian.

They kept going till they died or broke down.