Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Crumpp]

The trouble for you is that this is a fly in your ointment.

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/174

I would have mentioned 'crowd' but I don't think "Crump & Kurfurst" constitutes one lol

Frankly, you and your bumpal can say whatever you like - the game is over, and in the end not only have you lost but you've lost credibility too. You mug lmao

Who cares??

I don't play Cliffs of Dover. I only went to graduate school for aeronautical sciences, own/operate aircraft, and restore WWII fighters. My interest is purely personal without any stake in your game.

That is why I ignore you unless something peaks my interest.

You guys paid for a game and IMHO, the developers should give you what you want to enjoy it. If facts were opinion and the majority opinion mattered; we would not have things like civil rights law.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Who cares??

Judging by the number of posts you've written in this thread, I'd say you care.

And I don't play CloD either. Rubbish rig.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Certainly. The papers quite clearly state the British first captured samples of German synthetic, 'Green' C-3 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain. That is to say, the claim that the Germans were relying completely on captured British 100 octane stocks is demonstrated to be false and unfounded, and against what is said in the very series of reports.

I don't deny that this is interesting but your still looking at the wrong paper. Its also interesting that they were only used in me110 and Ju88 aircraft which were outclassed in combat when fighting spitfires and Hurricanes. So the Luftwaffe may have had some but it didn't have an im pact on the fighting and clearly it was in small numbers.

That's a curious statement. It does seem to me that in the first half of 1941, practically all of the German first line fighters (Bf 109E/N, Bf 109F-1, F-2) were running on 100 octane fuel.

But when the DB 605 was first built it was for B4 not the C3 fuel, different versions of the engine were built for the different fuel and for most of the war the 109 normally used B4.

Claimed by the man who repeatedly lies that I did not try to get a copy of Pips posting despite I have made clear several times that I did contact pips and searched the online archives. Cute.

There is a difference and its a large one. All my statements are supported by documents which are posted. However you failed and you did admit to me that you hadn't tried the Australian Archive the one place that was supposed to have it.

Well I know he appears everywhere NZTyphoon appears, he has misrepresented a piece of historical evidence, made a revisionist claim about the German use of 100 octane fuel in the Battle, refuses to post his papers, and does not answers any questions.

That's more than enough for me to assert his level of credibility, whoever he is.

You have his details, send him an e'mail, then you will know, thats what researchers do isn't it, check facts?

I should add that he also appears where I appear. He hasn't misrepresented any facts and you don't have the paper you claimed to have, i.e. the one up to October 1940 which he was quoting from. In other words the misrepresentation, is yours, not his.

Please do. Go ahead an entertain me. I can go an list how many times I have answer the same questions you keep asking, and how many times you have refused to post the full contents of the papers you are referring to, despite repeatedly asked.

I have offered three times for you to tell me which paper you are talking about and if I don't have the entire paper, I will get it for you next week when I go to the NA, this offer is still open until Monday, call my bluff.

Well again the report is indeed very specific about that the British found several samples of C-3, and readily acknowledged its use during the Battle of Britain. You seem to be in denial of German 100 octane use in the Battle of Britain.

No I am not. I clearly said that I didn't know but it made sense to use the 100 Octane as well as German fuel. Nowhere did I deny the use of German use of 100 Octane. Please post where I said what you claim, if you cannot then at least read my posting before replying.

Its interesting though. You claim all British fighter squadrons were using 100 octane during the Battle and deny that the Germans were using their own 100 octane at the same time. A not so well hidden agenda perhaps..?

I believe this to be the case but believe that my case is a strong but not perfect one. Again I repeat that I have never said that the Luftwaffe didn't use German 100 octane.

Well its hard evidence, but we seem to agree to dismiss NZTyphoon's calculations on the ground of it's unreliability and gross simplicity.

His calculations have a far more logical set of assumptions than yours, but you are correct, I don't rely on calculations.

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

they show the date.

Yes and they tell you that unit was using the fuel on that date. They don't say "All Operational Units" nor do they say if the unit was using it on any other day.

Again, the 1942 Pilots Operating Notes for the Spitfire Mk I is a damning piece of evidence against the claim "All Operational Units".

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Seadog

I have repeatedly challenged you to produce evidence of even a single Spitfire/Hurricane 87 octane operational squadron combat sortie during the BofB. This should be an easy task if, as you contend, the majority of RAF FC Spitfire/Hurricane operational squadrons were using 87 Octane fuel.

So I'll issue the challenge again and again, until you answer it or admit that your contention is unsupported by the historical record.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by winny

Judging by the number of posts you've written in this thread, I'd say you care.

LOL.. good point!

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Yes and they tell you that unit was using the fuel on that date. They don't say "All Operational Units" nor do they say if the unit was using it on any other day.

Again, the 1942 Pilots Operating Notes for the Spitfire Mk I is a damning piece of evidence against the claim "All Operational Units".

And how many units were actually flying the Mk1 in 1942, lol.

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by winny

All pages taken from the National Archive, from various weekly or monthly Oil Position reports.
All are available free to download from the NA's website.




from the same report












Consumption from start of war.


What shortage are we talking about...?

Interesting but you cannot answer operational questions with logistical answers.

If you compare the fuel at the airfields in September 1939 with the strategic reserves of 87 Octane you can get an idea of the ratio's they used.

Usually it is about 40:1 between Strategic Reserves and point of use. 16,000 tons at the airfields in September thru November 1939 leaves us ~8,000 tons per month.

Strategic Reserves of 87 Octane from 31 August 1939 to 7 December 1939 is (323,000 + 309,00)/2 = 316,000 tons

316,000 tons / 8,000 tons = 35.5

Now, they will maintain that ratio as best they can. It represents the 18 weeks of fuel in reserve.

So with 146,000 tons of fuel, roughly 3825 tons was usable. Now that 8,000 tons per month is training and administrative flying, not operational. When the war starts, 3825 tons is less than a quarter of the fuel required to conduct operational, training, and administrative flying.

Anyway, it is interesting but not applicable because it is logistical documentation and not operational.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Who cares??

I don't play Cliffs of Dover. I only went to graduate school for aeronautical sciences, own/operate aircraft, and restore WWII fighters. My interest is purely personal without any stake in your game.

That is why I ignore you unless something peaks my interest.

You guys paid for a game and IMHO, the developers should give you what you want to enjoy it. If facts were opinion and the majority opinion mattered; we would not have things like civil rights law.

You make me laugh Crump. You are 'special' aren't you!

[Crumpp]

And how many units were actually flying the Mk1 in 1942, lol.

Exactly Fruitbat....

It is an indicator of the importance of the change over to 100 Octane.

Do you really think if it occurred earlier they would not have immediately republished the Operating Notes?

Of course they would have republished them. It was a legal requirement from the Air Ministry by convention and our June 1940 Pilots Operating Notes would appear with the same notation for "ALL OPERATIONAL UNITS - 100 OCTANE ONLY".

The fact none of the operational documentation reflects that notation prior to January 1942 is a huge indicator.