IL2 and Sound Modding

[BrassEm]

Originally Posted by LW_lcarp

It is not permitted:

...

- To decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Multimedia Product.

Guess what the mod has to do to work?

Technically skinning and mission building do not interfere with the code. And are sanctioned by UBI/1c. So there is no problem there and never has been.

Modding in this case is about the unauthorised "cracking" of the code.

[stalkervision]

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

Exactly right back to where we started...
Onliners claiming its illegal or immoral or irresponsible for offliners to use the sound mod...
Where what they really mean is they can't trust the other onliners they choose to play with to behave responsibly.
If its shown not to be illegal...they'll claim its immoral...
If the claim that its immoral is shown as laughable they'll claim its irresponsible...
If the claim its irresponsibles is shown to be hot air they'll claim its selfish for offliners to enjoy themselves at the expense of onliners...and so the argument goes around and around in circles...
Every single thing the Online crowd says against the Sound Mod can be shown to be meaningless and false...
The only thing that stands up is that it has made it easier to cheat in anonomyous Online servers...
But surely thats something for the Online community to take responsibility for...
I for one am fed up of being scapegoated for the inadequacies of a small minority of juvenile online players...
Put your own house in order first!

This pretty much summarizes the whole situation in a nutshell. The rest of the blather here is exactly that..

[Rama]

Originally Posted by LW_lcarp

As per the EULA, anyone who has made a mission, pianted a skin, done a movie, or even played online in something other then a UBI game room is breaking the terms of the EULA.

Absolutly not:
- Making a mission is allowed by the mission editor who is a game feature. Using mission made by user is another game feature. It's like when you write a document with word and then read it with word.... using a software feature (so something which is not only part of the software, but wass also advertized as a game feature and one reason why people buy the game) is of course 100% legal
- use of user-made skin is also a game feature (also advertized and part of what you bought)
- playing online by IP is also a game feature, who was advertized and can be used legally. When you bought the game, you never signed an engagement to play trhough Ubi game Room).
For a movie.... it can be argued (as per "derived work" creation)

Considering the product you bought a user-license is protected by the French law about intellectual property, yes Qtim tools and modders that use them could legally be sued (but nobody can know what would be the court decision)
.... BUT..... once this is said.... then nothing is said.
Because Ubi would never spend a Euro cent to enforce intellectual property on a game which is commercially dead (or near to be)
... So neither Qtim, nor any modder will be sued
... So all this "legal debate" is useless and don't help in any way to solve the problem (which is the integrity of the online play).

Morality is another thing.... but turning the debate in a "good vs Evil" wont help more.

Now to answer Jasonbirder

Why would there need to be an "official" nod? Every single Flight Simulator, no wait...let me not narrow it down every single flight, combat, naval, racing etc etc simulator has been modified by its community...

Because official control is the only way to assure centralized quality control.
IL2 has also been highly modified (planes, maps, etc...) by the community... but under control.
Yes, there wasn't "free modding" during 6 years... and was it to its detriment?
The fact that IL2 today is the most succesfull combat flight sim ever... and this 6 years after the start and without "free modding", is a proof of the contrary.
Some say that would have been even better with "free modding"... but the reality is that nobody knows (and having know CFS world and other "free modded" combat fligth sim, I highly doubt it would have been the case).

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Now we could maybe go back on the only real concern (since now "free modds" are part of IL2 world): how can we secure online play again?

... at this point (that was reached allready long ago, as presented by Bearcat and others) pure offliners could just leave the debate.... since online play integrity is absolutly not their concern.

[LEXX]

Bearcat (page 108 )::

What in the world makes you think that Oleg kept the code to the sim locked because of the online community... or that we had any influence over him at all in that respect? Pfftt!! Sometimes I wonder ......

I'm with ya Bear. We could have tried instead of refusing to share the sim with others...and that's the whole point -- if we tried to help, our moral message today would be worth listening to, but we wasted it 4 years ago.

4 years ago...

Offline and Online players: Oleg let us customize this or mod that for optional use only.

Hostile Online players: You are arcade and want to cheat and kill the sim!

Today...

Offline and Online players: Wow, lets customize this or mod that for optional use only.

Hostile Online players: You are arcade and want to cheat and kill the sim!

We had our chance to at least try but we didn't take it.

[Rama]

Reread what Bearcat said Lexx..
You obviously didn't understood what he wrote.

Oleg is a big boy and wasn't forced to keep the game secure by anybody. That was his politic. A politic who proved to be successfull during 6 years.
It was also his politic to keep "free oppening" narrow, and to have modding controlled by his team. This also proved to be successfull during 6 years.

[LEXX]

As the QMB offers a method of selecting and viewing skins, skin mods have always been officially approved. At least that's the way I see it.

Interestingly, the role of the Default skin shows how a sim can be crippled by adopting restrictions that attempt to prevent Online cheating. In this case, cheating with non-Default skins.

Rama::

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Say a jar of marbles has 95 red marbles, and 5 blue marbles, for a total of 100 red and blue marbles.

We could claim the jar has red and blue marbles, and we would be correct! We would also be missing more detailed information of the jar's contents -- relative numbers of red and blue marbles.

Offliners and Onliners each paid for each box that each purchased.
Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

As one honest Online player at simhq poasted about 2 years ago...

If not for the Offline base, we'd all be paying 12$ a month to fly.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by LEXX

Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

It doesn't change anything to the fact that once they bought the box, they got what they paid for and that nothing more is due to them... this is right for every purchaser, either he plays online or offline or both, it doesn't change anything and don't give the buyer any right to require anything more.
If someone don't like the dev politic, he is free to vote with his money, either by not buying the game, or by not buying the addons afterwards... especially when the dev advertized clearly what were his choices and what objectives he try to reach.

[LW_lcarp]

Originally Posted by BrassEm

Guess what the mod has to do to work?

Technically skinning and mission building do not interfere with the code. And are sanctioned by UBI/1c. So there is no problem there and never has been.

Modding in this case is about the unauthorised "cracking" of the code.

Show me in the EULA where UBI sanctioned skinning and mission building this is what I got out of the EULA. To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work, To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios.

[LEXX]

LEXX:: Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

Rama::

It doesn't change anything to the fact that once they bought the box, they got what they paid for and that nothing more is due to them... this is right for every purchaser, either he plays online or offline or both, it doesn't change anything and don't give the buyer any right to require anything more.
If someone don't like the dev politic, he is free to vote with his money, either by not buying the game, or by not buying the addons afterwards... especially when the dev advertized clearly what were his choices and what objectives he try to reach.

It is true we agree.

As we were discussing, we had the chance to try and help the Offline base and the many Online players. And as poasted to Bearcat, that is where we failed. We shall review...


4 years ago...

Offline and Online players: Oleg can you let us customize this or mod that for optional use only.

Hostile Online players: You are arcade and want to cheat and kill the sim!

Today...

Offline and Online players: Yippee SoundMod, lets customize this or mod that for optional use only.

Hostile Online players: You are arcade and want to cheat and kill the sim!

Four years ago, we refused to even try to help others who paid for our sim's development, and we turned against them with hostility and contempt, and today we expect them to believe we have a "moral" message for them?

We don't. We threw it away. Now we pretend to be "shocked" and "angry."

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Rama

Absolutly not:

Because official control is the only way to assure centralized quality control.
IL2 has also been highly modified (planes, maps, etc...) by the community... but under control.
Yes, there wasn't "free modding" during 6 years... and was it to its detriment?
The fact that IL2 today is the most succesfull combat flight sim ever... and this 6 years after the start and without "free modding", is a proof of the contrary.
Some say that would have been even better with "free modding"... but the reality is that nobody knows (and having know CFS world and other "free modded" combat fligth sim, I highly doubt it would have been the case).

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Now we could maybe go back on the only real concern (since now "free modds" are part of IL2 world): how can we secure online play again?

... at this point (that was reached allready long ago, as presented by Bearcat and others) pure offliners could just leave the debate.... since online play integrity is absolutly not their concern.

Very well said... I just disagree with the higlighted part.... I think history has shown us very very clearly what happens to online play when modding is allowed.. that is the reason why so many online flyers are bemoaning the lost of integrity of the sim.. which was a major draw... believe me... if CFS 3 had not been a mod fest... and yes, some of the mods were very well done.. but there was a lot.. tons in fact.. of pure cr@p to wade through to find the good stuff... and if CFS3 had had the same integrity as FB I am willing to wager that a lot more folks would be flying it still... For many of the simmers who came here.. especially in the past 4 years or so I bet that the fact that the code was un moddable was a very strong draw... Coming from Janes, EAW, any of the CFS series or any other highly moddable sim where online play became like that box of chocolates Mrs. Gump talked about.

What Billfish was saying is the same thing that Rama is saying..... Not that the opinions of onliners do not count in the sense that they are literally worthless, which is how many of the offliners took her comments, but that the solution will not come from them.. because they have repeatedly said over and over and over that online play and the integrity of said play means very little to them, hence forth their opinions have little merit from a solution standpoint.

This sim wouldn't be as popular as it is now had it been moddable from day one... and for any offliner to insinuate that they have paid for "online stuff" is d@mn near textbook Orwellian. Like Rama said... the onliners paid for the same things the offliners did.... whatever version they got.... and they DID NOT pay for all the same things that the onliners DID NOT pay for... all those great free patches over the years.

And I guarantee you that for all the talk.. as soon as any kind of mod detector/defeater/definer comes along, whether it is scalable or not... meaning settable on the server side from allowing all mods to allowing all but FM/DM/Weps mods to allowing stock IL2 ONLY.... the hack crowd.. not neccessarily the same ones who are doing or benifitting friom the mods.. but the ones who busted the door in the first place, will be all over it... and many of those nice folks who ...only fly offline anyway will as well..... Time will tell.....